Eli

Day One FM live and direct on an 82 degree day in April. Allergies are absolutely raging. I know I wrote that in the little agenda but it is true. It wasn't totally scripted.

Trey

Allergies have been worse I've been hearing.

Clara

there's been a lot of sneezing in the open spaces let's say that.

Trey

That's why this episode is brought to you by Claritin. Stay Claritin clear.

Eli

Non drowsy we all prefer the non drowsy but if you do take the drowsy have a Diet Coke. Anyway, a lot happening a lot to get to by the time this airs, who knows it'll be but a distant memory in the past. That said we do have an agenda today and hoping to get through all of it and kept it AI agnostic but who knows where the conversation will go. So first, there was an article this past week in The New York Times style section loved and hated by some you know, I am a fan but they can be very polarizing sometimes.

Trey

Who we're the haters let's name them! Call them out.

Eli

The one piece about cigarettes are cool again. We you know, we dont have to go back down there.

Trey

Throwback! Gen Z is smoking.

Eli

Narc. So the piece was called, "Is There Life After Influencing?" and actually pleasant surprise that our good friend, Gen Z forecasts and author of The After School substack Casey Lewis was quoted in. But I want to start out by reading you all a quote, because I think this is something that we've talked about. Kind of the curtain closing on the age of the influencer. But the quote should kind of help to sum up/set the stage of the piece. So it's about this influencer and her name is Lee, I believe. "But over $40 Zoom workshops, she held to guide other creators through the process of leaving influencing true fine, she'd advertise the event on Instagram, the existence of the workshop, a small counterweight to the classes, seminars and boot camps that promise to teach civilians, how to become influencers" crazy vocabulary there. "Indicates a new disillusionment on on the part of even the most prominent content creators". So this, to me feels less like burnout. I also think there's like a lack of self awareness here. But let me open the floor.

Trey

I just think it's interesting how a lot of these influencers haven't really thought beyond life after influencing. Almost every job as an entertainer has a shelf life, whether you're like, aging out of roles and movies, or your voice dissipates, or there's just less desire for your music, because you can't keep up with trends. The same goes for influencing Yes, you can be yourself forever, but nobody wants to tune in forever. So there has to be like some kind of, like you said, curtain drop for when that transition has to take place. And if you have no discernible or transferable skills in like a resume sense. Maybe video editing and dancing in front of like a green screen can be something but what what are your options? I think the options are to help coach other influencers how to live in the real world?

Clara

Yeah, I mean, I don't know a $40 90 minute Zoom is like the house Caroline Callaway built. So to honor the legacy. But yeah, I mean, hard to follow on that Trey. I feel like I agree with you, I think this was also my take on de-influencing, which feels kind of like oxymoronic in a lot of ways because of that is like stepping away from influencing through influence. And I think like some of that is still maybe people trying to grapple with either like fading relevance or like an inability to kind of think outside of like, I'm gonna go on Instagram Live and stream this to all of my followers. But yeah, I don't know. I think the whole thing to your point to you Eli, just kind of had the element of not so self awareness that is also kind of like become the hallmark of the influencer age.

Trey

No, I think it was so I was just in LA and waiting at baggage claim at LAX and there were like, three really tall guys with the curtain bangs and they had the man waiting for them with a sign. So you know, they're like, at least rich if not famous, and some probably 12 year old boy went up to them and like got a selfie with one of them. So I was like, okay, there for sure Tik Tokers because there's no way these like, three teenage boys are just hanging out together on some like extremely good looking football team. So...

Eli

The cast of Friday Night Lights or whatever.

Trey

Yeah, I looked at the sign of the, you know, person picking them up and I had one of their last names on that. So I was like Googling, like Krol influencer blah, blah, blah. And it turns out, it was like this guy named Benji Krol. And his friend is like Nic Kaufman because they tag each other and all these stories. And then I found out that they had recently announced or launched like a YouTube channel together. And again, I didn't go so far as to like discover what kind of content they create. But the idea that I think they're like, riding their fame through first class United flights, as they are, you know, young and good looking until that eventually runs out. It's kind of like, I wasn't sad for them. But I was just like, sad generally, you know, that like, I guess this is like a viable market, especially in Hollywood. But there definitely is a shelf life to that. And I do think it's interesting that there's like, seemingly absolutely zero interest, especially from like the most famous ones that I've seen to, again, like learn and a transferable skill or something, you know, like, they really do lean into their 15 minutes factor. And I'm not sure if you saw Vinnie Hacker was just in Interview magazine, and the headline is like, "Vinnie Hacker is in his sweatpants". And it's literally all about him being like half naked and wearing sweatpants on tick tock, which is just like this long standing thirst trap thing. So, again, I think like, it's interesting that originally, Andy Warhol who coined the phrase would put people in the pages of interview in like the 70s, and 80s, literally just for like, looking good, or being the spawn of some former celebrity. But that has kind of become so prevalent that you do begin to wonder like, maybe you've made a million and you can just like make that last, but with these kids flying in first class not saying that's like, you know, poor decision making, but is there an investment strategy here?

Eli

All around me are familiar faces... I just looked this kid up. And he's like Jacob Sartorius adjacent. Do you guys know who that is?

Clara

Of course, yeah. Regrettably.

Eli

I do think it's interesting, though, because there was also of he's in Dirt, about, like, online personalities in movies. And like, the more kind of like niche online personalities. I'd never actually heard of some of the folks that. I'm blanking on the name, Jamison Rich reference, but particularly now when like, the balance of Tik Tok hangs in the air when like, this is what a lot of creators are relying on for monetization is like, what do you do next, when you have done essentially, like little thirst, trap dance videos in your room, or whatever? And that's, you know, putting a lot of folks on Tik Tok in a very narrow box. Like I don't think that's the whole thing. But it does speak to like, the longevity or lack thereof, of influencing, I suppose.

Clara

I think like what's also interesting, and I don't know, I was maybe like the tail end of this, but I remember there was a, it might have been a Tik Tok rather than an article. I won't oversell it, but basically talking about VidCon. And like the evolution that that went through of like, in YouTube days, kids would like line up around the block to see their favorite like YouTube star. But oftentimes with Tik Tok like, the big subscriber numbers don't necessarily translate to like IRL turnout or necessarily people like buying your product or if you launch a line. And I think it is interesting because like, obviously, like, Emma Chamberlain started on YouTube, like we've seen success stories kind of like come out of that, but I think Tik Tok in particular is kind of like, an interesting incubator for creator talent that lives off of Tik Tok. I think that in a way that like something like YouTube has manage to translate and I'm not an expert enough to know why this is necessarily but like, the way that you interact with Tik Tok and like, browse doesn't necessarily like, I don't know, lend itself I guess to like these very deep and profound relationships sometimes. And like if it does, it's often like, unfortunately, like, or maybe not, unfortunately, but it's like a thirst thing, you know I mean? And like, that is a very different type of like, career with a very different type of longevity. And you are sort of pigeon holing yourself into being either like, hoping for the heaven couch next year, or what you know, like one or the other choices?

Trey

Next stop, Last thought of the heaven co.

Clara

Whatever it is front row at Celine, but like, that, again, is like a very narrow pool of people. And it's already very competitive. You know.

Trey

One thing I am curious about is why brands don't sort of create the longevity with the influencer in tandem. So there are like, when you compare legitimate stats, like if you look at a tweet from, say, The New York Times or an account that has a million followers, and you see the numbers on how many times that tweet is viewed, since it's now public info, thanks, Elon. And compare that to say the number of views or likes that a Tik Tok gets from an influencer, it does become very clear very quickly, that leveraging influencers to sell your product or market your brand is effective, because it gets that many eyeballs. But the thing for me is like these creators are only relevant insofar as they have an audience. And a brand can do a lot to help build that audience up and become intrinsically connected with that creator. So I could give some examples where I don't want to like out any brands, essentially. But I think that like all influencers that I've met, or talked to, or even read about, are really interested in long term partnerships, because they know that whatever they're offering often does have a shelf life, whether it is based on looks, or whatever kind of content they do, you can only do so many different types of content before your audience gets like, sick of you, perhaps. So I am curious why more brands aren't like, doubling down on certain creators, they now are fans of the brand to create almost a marketing plan together where it's like, we will transparently rinse you for all your worth, until we have like created something together. And then we can dump you and move on. But like it's kind of in the interest of both parties. You know?

Eli

Sounds fun.

Clara

I mean, maybe this is like, I know taking it a bridge too far. But you know, like the studio system, like early days of Hollywood?

Trey

Yeah, exactly.

Clara

Are you familiar with the studio system? Eli?

Eli

Give me the TLDR.

Clara

So TLDR studio system and correct me here Trey, but it's like, different studios would have like actors who are licensed to the studio, you know, and so like Rita Hayworth was like with one studio so if another studio wanted her for movie like they couldn't have her because she was like, with that studio specifically like cut to today. Actors don't have those types of like restrictions on them. But like to Trey's point like maybe this is a potential future in which like, influencers work with like either a specific category of brand or they work with like a certain umbrella of brands. So like they work across Unilever or they work across whatever trying to think of another brand. But you know what I mean, like versus what we have now where like influencers are basically free agents, but I think in a way that does kind of undercut in some way sometimes maybe like, how legitimate the brand placement feels versus like if you see this influencer kind of continuing to work with this brand like as a fan of that influencer, maybe you go like "Oh, wow, like they seem sort of like genuinely into this and it's like a fan of them. I am too", you know what I mean that type of thing.

Eli

I guess my the easy answer to your like, hypothetical question Trey about like, Why? Why the lack of longer term relationships? Although I do think some exists with like, more macro creators that like these moments are just too fleeting, like, even whatever in 2017, which is six years ago on like, the internet landscape was completely different. Remember Mason Ramsay? The yodel kid. Like, gone that he did like two songs.

Clara

He was on a Lil Nas X remix with Billy Ray. Don't forget that, please. ,

Eli

Yeah, or like,

Trey

The apex of his career.

Eli

Or like, the cranberry juice guy like I guess what does a longer term relationship look like? When like, all these brands are laser focused on like, very reactive content. You know, which I don't have the answer to, but like.

Trey

Well, I think my counterpoint to that would be the two examples you gave were people who like accidentally went viral and weren't building a career towards virality, where there are a lot of influencers who have been slowly building up an audience and are legitimate fans of a brand and you put you onto something in a genuine way. And the brand I think, like I was kind of saying can help create that longevity. So like, maybe not Mason Ramsey or something. But Emma Chamberlin say she was a huge fan of like a coffee brand and didn't start her own. What if that coffee brand helps to create the coffee together with her the way I think she did, it was like, actually smarter, because she has thoughts in her head. But I think that could have become a huge partnership for whatever brand ended up doing it. And even if it was, like a limited time thing that just maybe kept going and going. I think that brands are too afraid of the fleeting moment to double down and say, like, No, we believe in this creator or this influencer. And therefore we will invest in them and come up with something together to ride their wave as they ride our wave like brands or influencers in their own sense of the word.

Clara

Yeah, I mean, I think that's an interesting point. And I mean, I'm gonna take a slight pivot from my like, kind of shitting on the influencers stance earlier in this call, but like, I think it's a weirdly like a self fulfilling type of thing to to your point, Trey. I think if more brands did double down, then maybe the influencer churn would be less pronounced like I think, like, at the end of the day to like brand deals are a big part of what drives this. And so I think, if you are able to, as an influencer, operate with like, a little bit more security, less of a scarcity, mindset, all of that jazz. And like, actually think about the type of content that you're making for the brand and like, collaborate more deeply, I think you would also have more sustained careers for those influencers as well. Whereas I think now to your point, Eli, it's a lot of like, hopping from one to the next to the next of like, these already viral things, rather than it being sort of like a more collaborative relationship, though, I do think there have been examples of like, maybe more collaborative things and trying to think of them.

Eli

I think there are in like, I'm not going to name the ones that we've worked on with clients, but like those would be a good example, Chipotle X Keith Lee.

Trey

But to go back to the studio system set up, I think, also when those stars were like floundering, say it was Rita Hayworth, or something that just like wasn't hitting the same way in the box office returns, then that studio would have a responsibility, and a desire to really put her in a big movie or like, get eyeballs back onto her or like plant stories in the press about her that would make people interested again. So in that same sense, I think brands can start caring, literally for influencers in a way that like, would help both parties in a sense. Like if your success is tied to somebody so deeply, and that person is constantly creating content about you and your brand. That's like seen positively, I just don't really see the downside unless they get cancelled... To sort of pivot. Do we have also parasocial relationships that we've built up with, like newscasters and news media and has that relationship as we shift into?

Clara

Okay, I kind of have a hot take here, too. I think parasocial relationships are unavoidable to an extent, if that makes sense. Like, I don't think that you can be a regular consumer of media and not sort of feel an identification with the person or like the entity that you are, like consuming, like whether it's like a podcast like you listen to How Long Gone

Trey

Or Day One FM.

Clara

Or it's like a radio show, or you listened to Day One FM. Like perhaps you have a parasocial relationship with us.

Eli

Why did you say like that?

Clara

I was trying to make it sounds creepy, and it did. So it was a success story. But I do think that yeah, it's kind of unavoidable but I do think that like, there are ways to impose limits on it to kind of keep some distance for yourself, but I think that the whole concept that like, Oh, I like don't have like, I don't think about people that I follow in that way. I don't think that it's like a matter of choice. But I think that like how hard you Stan is a matter of choice. Dare I say. But you know what I'm saying though? Like, I think that's why you go back to the same content all the time or you go back to the same site or whatever it is like you do have a relationship with this person's work, at least if not them.

Eli

What's the difference between an interest and a relationship?

Clara

Well, I think a relationship to the extent that like, I mean, are you asking me are you being like?

Eli

I don't know.

Clara

Well, because I have an answer. But if you're making fun?

Eli

No, I'm not making fun. I am genuinely curious.

Clara

Okay. So I think that yes, there is a difference between like having a relationship and having an interest in something like I have an interest.

Trey

Just ask any of my committee.

Clara

I know. Whatever, but I think that yeah, of course, there is like you're gonna have an interest in like a topic. But I think that like if you go to a specific place to learn about that topic.

Trey

If your being fed that. Then that's a relationship I would say, if they are giving then yeah.

Clara

If they are giving. What was it in mid summer? Do you feel held by him? Do you feel held by Axios Eli?

Eli

I haven't seen midsummer. Am I missing out?

Clara

I mean, you should watch it definitely. Great movie about relationships.

Eli

Yeah, that was a real fuckin right turn.

Clara

I don't know. Do you guys think that like parasocial relationships, like you feel that you have them? And do you feel that they are like helpful or hurtful?

Trey

That's a therapy session.

Eli

What's all this?

Clara

Well I guess I'm just curious, like, I don't know, I would say that I have a parasocial relationship with but I think that like that term itself has become like ew, I don't have parasocial relationships.

Trey

No, I think it's like genetic instinct that you naturally gravitate towards certain people, which is I think, why, for example, a lot of news media has built its credibility on certain faces, you know, often old white men like Walter Cronkite era. But I think that hasn't changed. And I think that as we kind of shift into this kind of weird media landscape of only centrist nonpartisan news. It will be very difficult for these new brands to break through if they don't have a specific opinion on anything. Because even the, you know, non partisan news that it currently exists like NPR, BBC, they're extremely left leaning.

Eli

I agree, I think what people say about like, their desire for a more kind of like milk toast right down the middle news, and what they actually want is very different. Like, yes, I think ideally, we would all like to just hear it how it is and make our own, like, have our own perspective come out of that. But the reality is like CNN has tried a very down the middle strategy, or so they say with under Chris Licht. And they have like the worst cable news ratings under MSNBC, which surely can't be hard. But at the top of the totem pole is Fox and they have the biggest media personalities who say shit, that according to like, Logan Roy would say RIP. Stuff that like nobody says, but everyone thinks, you know, like that type of thing. So yeah, I think you're right you need to be voicey you need to have some type of POV. It doesn't need to be like on the fringes. And I don't think it should be to attract an audience. But yeah, I think if your question was like, what's the viability of this kind of like down the middle news network, such as new media conglomerate, The Messenger or whatever, I don't think there.

Trey

What's going on with The Messenger, because I have not been following that conversation. And it has seemingly come out of left field for me.

Eli

Totally. So The Messenger is a new media company that was started by this guy, Jimmy, or something. Finkelstein? I wanted to say that but it almost sounded long

Trey

See we already have feelings about this.

Eli

I believe he was behind The Hill, which is a politically oriented publication for those who work on The Hill in DC. But basically, he wants to go back to the days of like you said, Walter Cronkite and 60 minutes when everyone was watching the news at the same time, and they were all fed the same information. And it's very lofty goals. I think they're shooting for 550 journalists like 100 million in revenue, they're doing it only via advertising. So like, no paywalled content at all. So it's extremely ambitious. And our CEO, Josh Rosenberg, for those who are listening, I was recently quoted in a piece about this. And in the piece, I believe the editor in chief was quoted by saying that they want to be the farthest thing to the right, that left people will read and the farthest thing to the left that right wing people want to read. But I know this is rambling, but I'll just close it out. I think it's getting a lot of attention, because it's really difficult to like, be a media startup right now. And I think you need to have a like very specific POV or have a, you know, a cast of journalists that people already know. Or like, you're backed by a Petro state. Like, that's pretty much it. So I don't know.

Clara

Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm just like, I'm also whatever, I'm not an expert. But like, it just to me, was this to your point? It's not a good time. Like, how many people is that? Do you think that is like, so far left that they want to read something center. But is, you know, what I'm saying like, how many people is that? Like, what is that audience even look like? I feel like everything that I've seen is saying that people are like, further entrenched than ever in their bubbles, like, are they doing anything, I guess, to like, incentivize people to emerge from their bubbles other than just saying, Here's a bubble free option, you know, and I'm like, which I think is like the weird part with like, media startups. To me at this, like, What is the incentive for me to read Puck? You know, what I mean? Like, it's that, like, maybe I'm reading an author who's like, at the top of their game, whatever. You know, like, maybe for me, that's an incentive, but like, What is the incentive to, I guess, read behind your ideological standpoint, or read beyond your ideological standpoint?

Eli

Why thrown Puck into the ring here?

Clara

Well, I'm just saying that, like, they are a relatively recent thing. And like, their whole plug is that this is high quality journalism, from high quality journalists, the best of the best. And like for some people who have money to spend and have little time to spare, like, maybe that is worth it to them. But I feel like making the mark across like an ideological line that like, we are so center, like, do people look for that? Are they doing anything to like, incentivize people to look for that? Because I feel like everything that I see is that nobody gives a shit about reading outside of their bubble. Just like without the ideological standpoint, just like purely from a viability standpoint. Like what's the what's the point of doing that? I guess, is my question.

Eli

I think it's a marketing thing. It's like, We live in the post truth era. And like, do you want to read the loonies on the right, or like the reaction that's on the left? Neither come read us. We have no POV whatsoever.

Clara

Okay, you know, the whole thing though, like everyone says that they like dark roasted coffee. That's very flavorful. And everyone in fact, if you give them different types of coffee enjoys, like very watery, whatever, sugary coffee, the average American. I feel like the average American might say that they want to read news that's like, oh, the left is so crazy. And the right is so crazy. And I just need something that's basic, and you give them basic, like you give them Reuters, and they're like, what's all this? You know what I mean? Like, isn't there a Reuters. Isn't there APE? Are those like still a thing?

Eli

I think we are saying the same thing that like, it's just what people say, but not actually how they like, act in the market?

Clara

Yeah. I don't know this type of thing. Like, even more than influencers really incites me. I feel like I'm feeling a little punchy today.

Trey

Well especially when someone who is like a dinosaur of the media world makes a huge declaration about how their brand is going to like do things differently. So I don't see how there's like a gap in the market for this, but perhaps I'll be proven wrong. And at that, at that time, I will gladly dust off my hands and log on to themessenger.com.

Eli

Yeah, even like, Would you do you have an opinion page as a centrist news organization?

Trey

How could you?

Eli

I need bread and circus.

Trey

Yeah, exactly.

Eli

That was a lively discussion. Trey, Clara closing thoughts? Otherwise, like, subscribe.

Trey

I'm just hoping through all of this discussion, we've at least got one parasocial relationship firmly established with one of our listeners. So if that's you, please reach out to podcast@d1a.com. Forward this to a friend like and subscribe and thanks for tuning in

Eli

Alright, over and out. Thanks for listening in. Be sure to check out more on d1a.com/perspectives and sign up for our bi-weekly newsletter to get the latest trends and insights directly to your mailbox.