Brian Morrissey on What the "AI Pope" and Succession Say About Today's Media Landscape
Eli
Day One FM. We have a great episode coming up. Definitely stick around. Brian Morrissey is joining the pod. He is a media vet, founder and author of The Rebooting newsletter, host of the Rebooting Show podcast, also is on another podcast called People vs. Algorithms. Definitely check that out. And yeah, we actually met Brian...Clara and I met Brian at the DLD conference in Munich last year, super nice guy, and came through on his promise to come on the pod. So for that, we say thank you. But yeah, I thought it was a great convo. We talked about, you know, the internet swirl over the drip Pope. The AI frenzy. For those who don't know, again, there's a image of Pope Francis in a very bougie white puffer jacket. That was not real. But a lot of people thought it was real. It's maybe a mid journey. We also talk about The Hundred, which is the media startup pitch by the Roy children in the pods favorite show Succession or among them. Who knows? Clara and I've been talking a lot about Outlast, a show on Netflix. Drop a comment about it.
Clara
Can't wait to see how this ties in. Oh, my gosh.
Eli
Trey, Clara. What are your thoughts on the media industry? You have one minute? No, I'm kidding.
Trey
It's interesting to see what Brian writes about on his newsletter because he has such an insider's POV without making it seem too insider baseball. So there's always like a new media startup in the news and something to kind of dissect, which he does kind of expertly with his, you know, wealth of knowledge. So it's really interesting, but one thing, and I'm not going to spoil it, but he mentions a specific publication that has been on my radar, at least for quite some time that is kind of perpetually out of the conversation. No one really talks about it, but his kind of like, had the sort of mainstay of a cult audience for quite some time. So I was kind of surprised that he was a pretty big fan. So stay tuned for that. But yeah, he always has some really interesting insights. And I do think that with the media sort of, can I say slowed devolution, it's not really exactly like, opinion at this point. It's more, you know, objective fact. But it's really interesting to kind of see how the media has been fractured, and where audiences are looking for their news now.
Eli
Agreed.
Clara
I think somewhat relatedly, though, and we kind of talked about this with Brian, I feel like there's we don't often talk about media in like the brand advertising space, often outside of like PR hits and headlines. But I think there's a lot of parallels between sort of like, the media identity crises, and like, dare I call them the brand narrative identity crises, like I think there's a lot of parallels, like both in terms of like, how brands are trying to reach Gen Z, and like younger people with like, new formats, and like brand new surfaces, like much in the same way that like, lots of legacy media are also sort of like adopting similar practices. And so I think it's like some space, it's interesting to watch being sort of like, in a parallel way involved, but I think also just sort of from like, a cultural standpoint, how like, Legacy Media used to be like, I don't know, I've tried to, I'm struggling to think of like, what the parallel would be but maybe it's like, you have on one end like the All the President's Men that kind of like in the weeds, like, report or whatever, and then you had like Mad Men, and now it's just kind of like people on social like playing Wordle you know what I mean? And like trying to tap it on both ends, but I don't know I think like they're both sort of going through like an evolution. I don't want to call it a devolution but I think like the landscape is changing for both.
Eli
All right, well, coming up. We got Brian Morrissey joining us. Stay tuned. Brian Morrissey Welcome to the pod. How you doing?
Brian Morrissey
Thanks for having me. I brought my own microphone.
Eli
Yup, yup, just like brought your own pool stick.
Brian Morrissey
Don't be intimidated.
Eli
It was a little intimidating not going to lie to you. So reading the most recent rebooting that popped into my inbox today. It's almost like you read the little briefing intro doc that I typed up because you touched on two topics that I was hoping to get your thoughts on. The first is I have to ask, did you initially fall for the Balenciaga Pope, which for those who are listening, it's a mid journeyed Pope that was wearing this kind of, you know, he was fitted up he was wearing a puffer jacket and it went viral on Twitter. Did you fall for that? Initially?
Brian Morrissey
100%. Yeah I did. I totally did. I sent it to my wife. And, she posted it to Instagram. So when I like sort of, now it's like, I don't know if it gets it's like sequential liability. Like, I'm at fault, but I thought it was, I think this is like, it's funny, because we're going to see more and more of this stuff that I always hated. I always think that there's generally two types of people like people who like, like April Fool's Day and people who are horrified but I'm in the latter camp, and I feel like now every day is April Fool's Day or Talk Like a Pirate Day and April Fool's Day. And I hate both of those things. So it's gonna be basically a rough ride from here on out.
Eli
You know, I was I initially, I got got and then I kind of looked at the hands. That's how you can tell these days you look at the hands because it can't do hands.
Brian Morrissey
Well I can't Oh, yeah, Kyle. Kyle was on this podcast, right? Like he wrote about that. I think he wrote about how it can't do hands.
Eli
Yeah, yeah, it's six fingers. The one weird, weird thing, but really quickly, and then we can get dive right into it. I was reading about how the guy who made it was a 31-year-old construction worker from the Chicago area who said he was tripping on shrooms when he came up with the idea of the image.
Brian Morrissey
I know it's amazing. It's great. I liked it. But that was actually really interesting story. And then he turned to mid journey, like as he was like grieving for his brother who died. And I think there are all kinds of things though, with these tools that like we have no idea how, I mean, it's both like good and bad. We have no idea how people are going to use them. And the one thing I can say for sure is they're not going to be a productivity gain immediately. There's total sapped productivity. And I think that most of the use early use cases are going to be along these lines with or without shrooms.
Trey
Well, yeah, I wonder if you just immediately torpedoed the idea of a prompt engineer as like, an entire career when you can just like
Brian Morrissey
It's like, new careers, prompt engineering. This guy's like, I don't know, I was tripping on shrooms. I thought this would be dripped out Pope
Trey
Yeah. Pope puffer like, let's see what I can get done here.
Brian Morrissey
But I think it was at least believable enough because, you know, Francis does have a little bit of swag about him, so.
Eli
That's true. And you know, this, this might be left on the cutting room floor but in an institution where corruption runs that rampant, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he would be wearing that.
Brian Morrissey
We are due for a good Vatican Bank scandal. I think they're actually going on?
Clara
Well, there was at least there was Pope John Paul with the Prada, right? Yeah, yeah. Deep cut. Maybe. But
Trey
I don't know if I remember.
Clara
It's in the water.
Trey
Not my Pope.
Brian Morrissey
The Vatican Pope has or the Vatican Bank generally has a lot of issues I think.
Eli
All right. Well, perfect segue. It actually is great
Brian Morrissey
Surprised they didn't get into crypto. Guess it didn't last long enough because the Catholic Church is slow moving, notoriously slow moving institution.
Eli
Oh man a lot of red tape in that one. Well, it's great timing because I know a lot of your work and your writing is about the media industry at large and publishing and you know the purpose as you say of the rebooting, which is your newsletters to find pathways for sustainable business models for media, which we'll dive into because I also want to get your take another timely discussion. Hopefully by the time this rolls out to on the 100 which you briefly touched on in your most recent newsletter, which of course for those listening who for some reason are not watching Succession is the brief media startup pitched by the Roy children Kendall, Roman and shiv. It is a substack meets Masterclass meets the Economist meets the New Yorker. How much of that is a reflection of either pitches you've heard or things that you are seeing now that are not ironic at all?
Brian Morrissey
I mean, I think it's like, to me like worked on a lot of levels because it sounds almost exactly like obviously it's turned up a little bit but it sounds exactly like a lot of the pitches that have been affixed to a lot of media startups over the last like decade plus and and this one is, you know, it's to me, it's just like Pitch Perfect. And when you come out with a new publication, you can't. You can't just be like, oh, yeah, well we're, we see an opportunity, because we're just going to do it better than these people. And we're just going to run it more efficiently. And, you know, we've got, we think we're going to be able to track some better people, and, you know, stuff like this, you gotta be like, no media is broken. And we've got this secret, nobody sees what we see. And we're going to, you know, and usually when, you know, when people are like, Oh, well, you know, it hasn't been done before. I'm like, well, there's probably a reason I Ben Smith talked about this actually, on the Succession podcast. And, you know, and so I think that that was a good send up to this era of, you know, empty promises, basically, about like, reinventing this and that and stuff. Because if you look at a lot of the, you know, really hyped media, digital media companies that have come before, you know, they didn't live up to their promises. I think that's okay, we can we can say its a safe space
Eli
Drop names.
Brian Morrissey
Look, at Vice, we could name some names like, Steven, like, you know, that these companies did not live up to their promises. And so I think it's instructive to think about why? Why did that, you know, and I think there's a lot of finger pointing about other people platforms and all this stuff like this. But the reality is, you know, the business is how it is. And these companies were not, you know, we're not made for how, you know, the environment changed. And, you know, I think, if we're drawing any lesson from that, and just like, the Roy's like, they're just stringing together these this jargon and these buzzwords in order to appeal to, you know, it appeals to like finance type people, but it had nothing to do with like an audience, there was no like, there was no organic audience to the 100 it was just completely made up. And we see that like, you know, the most extreme example, was probably Ozzy, I was going to call it oxy. It should have been gone oxy.
Eli
Did he get indicted?
Brian Morrissey
Its addictive and bite size. I don't know. Um, but yeah. But like, you know, you saw that with Ozzy media, you know, being completely and utterly made up like there was no audience whatsoever. And, you know, I think the best defense that Carlos Watson, the founder and CEO sort of had was like, Oh, this is just, you know, an extreme version of the bullshit everyone is doing.
Trey
I'm curious, though, like all of these media startups that are pitching, you know, investors or whatever? What can they say that is actually convincing, that aren't these buzzwords? And why would a VC your startup, or like investor invest in any new media company knowing that like, the model is kind of failing, no matter how you spin it, or what buzzwords you add to it? Like, why would I invest in media now?
Brian Morrissey
Well, I think that's it gets to you think about Succession and why, like, if you think about, like, ways to make money, like media is should be the last of the list, right? Like, if you want to, like, if you want to, like make money, like own car dealerships and stuff like that, like the true rich people in this country, in quotes, like, are people doing stuff like, you know, car dealerships and stuff there the common, you know, rich people, not, not people who, who build publishing businesses. I mean, you know, and that's why I think with succession, it was interesting, because, they tack back to the old days of media back with the Titans and like deal making and all that stuff like this. And the reality is, building these empires is incredibly difficult these days. And I think, to me, the big takeaway is that the future is largely a smaller future than than the one before there's not going to be these grand empires that are built. Rich people always be attracted to media, because rich people are really about power at the end of the day. I mean, money is just a way of keeping score powers where it's at. And media is is a way towards power. I mean, why in the world would these people who are seemingly and by everything they tell me are very, very successful capital allocators as venture capitalists, why do they spend so much time complaining and being like media critics, like, how does that make any sense? How does it make sense that they cast like someone who's, you know, living like with two roommates in Fort Greene as part of the elite? People who live in like, they're like, the 17,000 square foot houses and eight or 10 are not What? You went to Stanford. What are you talking about?
Trey
Yeah. I just think it's really interesting, though, like wasn't Sam Bankman-Fried found and like his parents apartment in Miami or something? Like It wasn't even... Oh, but yeah, I just I don't understand. Like I also was, thought it was interesting how like, I don't know how you feel about semaphore, because I want to talk about semaphore and how, you know, Ben Smith is like disrupting the model, maybe I don't know what your feelings are. But I also noticed that like a new thing in terms of how he is like making a product out of his output is that you can like as a brand, respond to an article or an op ed and semaphore, as I think they're called rebuttals, so you can pay like Capital One can pay to have a rebuttal. Like a sponsored reply, essentially, to an article that's like, oh, they aren't doing things, right or something. And it's like a message now from the people criticizing, that are being purchased. I like it, too.
Brian Morrissey
No, he was back in Palo Alto. I mean, I think this is actually something I'm writing about on Thursday. Because I wrote about like formats, and how important formats are in media. But I want to write about ad formats, because ad formats are actually more interesting, because you're trying to make a format in order to get the audience attention and to package up the material in such a way that either informs them quicker or better, or entertains them for longer and keeps them around. And it's it's a hard problem to solve. But it gets infinitely harder when you have to introduce the needs of an advertiser, because a lot of times the needs of an advertiser or completely opposite to what the audience wants. And so you're trying to solve these, these two, sometimes opposing problems with ad formats. And I think what we've learned over the last, and I think this is why the future of media is smaller, not bigger, is the best, you know, advertising formats, in particular are clearly quote unquote, native to the media, you know, so they take on the structure of the media product itself. So I think about what is the only like homerun media format, ad format of, you know, the internet at this point? It's probably search, you know, and it's just like, it's just a listing. Like, it's just text, right? The banner ad totally failed as an ad format, like nobody, you know? For decades, people were telling me about how they were going to like, make, you know, the internet safe for brand advertising, brand advertising, and they're going to get the TV dollars and stuff and they never did. They got the, you know, Google took the Yellow Pages business, the direct marketing business, went online. Brands, for the most part, and brand building did not get done through banner ads, skyscrapers or any of that crap, you know, and that's why everyone's fleeing to connected TV. As the idea is like, no, no, now we're going to be able to get... What's connected TV, it's TV ads. The format is, that's what people want. They want to TV ad. Not regular people. The marketers want TV ads. And so you know, I think like, what you're describing with semaphore is like, how do you end up having an ad format? That makes sense within the media format? I think the semaphore itself is like a work in progress. And like, I don't think it's there. Because I guess like when I'm, I told Ben this, like, I was like, when I haven't like reading like, some of the articles. And I don't know whether this is just me, I don't think normal people would think like this. Like, I'm thinking, oh, yeah, this is just a normal article written in a Google doc. And then you had to, like, shoehorn it into this format. Which, you know, is probably true for the most part, right? Like if you're, if you're writing like your regular like stuff for ever, and you go to like semaphore, you're gonna write your regular stuff, and then just tweak it a little bit for this new format. But I think what's interesting is how do you actually craft ad formats that makes sense within that semaphore format, that they're really trying to make work? And that makes total sense, the view from, you know, they do like the view from Beijing if they're doing like, TikTok and, you know, the TikTok ok ban or whatever, you know, they'll do Oh, the view from Beijing, it's like, you can end up seeing them doing like the view from TikTok. I like it. I mean, sometimes it goes too far and then you're like, because, like you're putting chocolate in the peanut butter, I guess, with with, you know, commercial with editorial and stuff, but I don't know everything's a hustle.
Trey
Right. I always like because I used to work in magazines and it was always funny when it was like, okay, time to write an advertorial. And the brand message is, like, "buy the electric vehicle" and I would have to find a way where it's like, you know, it was the youth culture publications I worked at mainly so it was like, you know, seven up and coming musicians who love to like drive or something, you know, and so shoehorned into the format and you were like this, no one is going to click on this first of all. I'm trying to make it more palatable and like digestible for our audience, which I know doesn't want this. And the brand also is like, we just want you to say "buy the electric vehicle", like we're not looking for the musician, angle, whatever. So it's kind of like a lose lose in that sense. And I still think that is very much happening, especially when you think about like formats and all these media properties who are trying to come up with the ownable format, like how can they have the ownable format.
Brian Morrissey
Yeah, because like, the Internet was not made for the kinds of advertising that worked really well in analog media, right. So like, think about, like TV ads, you know, I'm sure they were jarring at first, right. But, you know, the original Texaco theater was, you know, basically just presented by, you know, it's sort of like what you're doing, like a newsletter is now. And, you know, the TV commercial that like, most of us grew up on, you know, it became an acceptable sort of trade off. You knew you're gonna get, it's like, you know, there used to be, you guys don't know this, but there used to be this, like, dating show love connection, which dating, but it's like Chuck Woolery was like the host. And he would always be like, we'll be back in two and two. And I was like what is this? And then it took me in and I was like, a kid. And I was like, I don't know why I was watching a dating show. But it was like, two minutes and two seconds, because that was the length of like, a commercial break. And because it was it was four commercials in the pod. And then I guess they leave two seconds buffer. And that was like an acceptable thing. And you think about magazines, right? Like, you, you open a magazine and you go through some, you know, ads for Bulgari and like all these other things, then you get to the content. And like, you know, it's like, it makes sense. The Internet never made sense with the advertising. It was always, it was never fully integrated into the flow of publisher websites. It was relegated to the periphery, or it literally blocked the content. You know, and I think that developed an adversarial model of online advertising, that didn't work for anybody. It didn't work for the advertisers didn't work for the audience. And so what happened was, the internet ended up going into this direct response direction, where, you know, it was all about how much data you could collect and how you could target, you know, the the ad formats themselves. were, you know, the sort of least important thing.
Clara
Well, I guess, also going off of Trey's point about like ownable content franchises, I feel like something that we talk a lot about from sort of an earned social perspective is about formats for TikTok formats, for Reels. And I feel like you could trace this all to like the success of The Hot Ones and things like that, too. And I'm kind of curious if you see that type of format, being kind of like a viable or acceptable route in terms of like, earning consumer attention, because I agree with you. I feel like a lot of internet advertising just sort of feels like background white noise at this point.
Brian Morrissey
Yeah. And I think a lot of it is just like, when you try to scale something, you know, you lose the uniqueness. And you have to make trade offs. Life is just full of trade offs, right? And so most ad formats start off as being like, I don't want to say cool. I mean, I'm stretching the definition of cool, but like, yeah, they start off being fairly, like interesting. And like, I know, over the years, I was always told about these incredibly high interaction rates for like, any, like, new ad unit, or, and of course, it goes in one direction. It's like a CPM, it only goes in one direction, and that's down. And, you know, I think like, a lot of these formats that start, they start like organic, and they're like, okay, well, we're not going to do advertising. Actually, this is organic content that we're going to promote into the feed and like, you know, Facebook did this, Twitter used to be, it was just gonna promote tweets that were on the platform, and, you know, eventually they morph into because they have to scale and because of the tracking and because of how agencies work and because of the DSPs or whatever, everything ends up becoming mechanized and commoditized to me. And that's, I think, that's just how scaled industries work. And, you know, that is I think the counter to that is going to be much more you know, handcrafted type stuff. And to me like that's going to be the bifurcation when you think about AI and how much AI is going to change a lot of shit like, you know, I think that there's gonna be people who totally lean into AI and just try to win on like efficiency. And then those who go in a totally different direction and try to do something like very handcrafted and very, not AI.
Eli
Yeah, speaking of handcrafted, I know, you've spoken a lot about synthetic media and the kind of counter to that, maybe being the return of magazines, or something similar. That's something that we spoke very briefly with Daisy Alioto, the co-founder of Dirt, about, about how the old magazine kind of ethos of "taste making"—her words—feels relevant again, that's kind of like a buffer to all of this synthetic media. Wondering, do you think that's a viable solution? Doesn't matter that it's not maybe super scalable?
Brian Morrissey
No, I mean, I hope that like there is a bunch of publications like Dirt like Gossamer and like, that spring up, that are completely not about like, where everything is going with AI and mass and scale, because you can build a lot of really good products and good businesses, I feel like still in digital media. It's just like, you know, the ceiling of them is lower, and that's okay. Like, it doesn't, you know. Not everyone needs to get on the sort of private jet like the Roy's and stuff, they made the right choice. Like, right, like, I mean, they could have kept working on The Hundred. And stuff like this. I don't think The Hundred sounds like that ludicrous of an idea, the way they painted was ludicrous. And I'm like, okay, see this kind of working? Like, you know, as long as Scott Galloway was involved somehow. Some shot.
Eli
It did seem like it, you know?
Brian Morrissey
I was shocked that he was not involved, actually.
Clara
I mean, I guess to your point about how it's not that ludicrous to very briefly take it seriously, just hear me out: But it this idea of, I think, because I met you as well with Eli at the DLD conference, and you had spoken about this idea of like we were in this era of unbundling, that you have like a bunch of subscriptions and then we're kind of maybe going back to an era of bundling. And I feel like as a very generous reading, the idea with the 100 was essentially like a bundling of like substacks meets masterclass, meets The Economist, meets The New Yorker. And so then I was like, is it maybe just like a good idea with bad branding? Like, is that too hot of a take?
Brian Morrissey
Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's again, I really, I'm with you, Clara. I don't think it's a terrible idea because, I think like Semafor and Puck are actually like fighting over who's been lampooned, which is also like a commentary on the state of digital media. It's like, no, they're making fun of our business. No, they're making fun of our business. It is also sort of fitting that it's like, everyone looks for validation still from like, the most from traditional media, at the end of the day. You know, digital media never developed the heft that analog media had. Times change. But it's kind of remarkable. But no, I think it ends up making a lot of sense, because I always think that we're, we're on this sort of continuum between institutional brands and individual brands. And, you know, substack is always is all the way on the side of like, individuals as the brand. And The Economist is on the other side as like, the institutional is not even by lines in The Economist, right? It's just going to be an institutional voice and not just like not having by lines, but like, you know, an economist article when you read it, I mean, their ideology. II call it an ideology, this point is like, pretty much unchanged since like, the Corn Laws got passed, and like the 1850s. So, you know, points for consistency. It does get a little, it gets a little monotonous, to be honest with you. I need to take breaks. I love The Economist, but I need to take breaks, of sometimes multiple years. But yeah I think that like, a lot of brands are trying to figure that out. Like Semafor is, Puck is, and they're trying to—Axios to a degree—figure out where that is, because there's a lot of advantages. Brands still matter. And I think the question ends up being is how do you harness the power of like individual brands, which are going to be probably more important, like going forward? I would think even more so. With all this AI stuff going on right now, I think that like, it's going to really challenge a lot of institutional brands. And I think people will gravitate and in a time when you have no idea if the Balenciaga Pope is real or not, towards trusting like humans, more than institutions or just random people, so...
Eli
Yeah, we've heard a lot of about the human premium, which sounds like human meat on like a grocery aisle or something, you know, it's like
Clara
The new Happy Meal. That's disgusting but...
Trey
I'm curious, because they're not really in the discourse but what do you think of Monocle?
Brian Morrissey
Oh my god. I just listened to the Monocle. Okay Monocle is like my guilty pleasure. I'm so glad you brought this up. Nobody has ever wanted to talk to me about Monocle, Trey. Do we have like an hour?
Trey
Absolutely, let's get into it.
Brian Morrissey
I'm fascinated by Monocle. I was just listening to the Monocle on Sunday podcast. Tyler Brûlé, if I'm pronouncing that correctly—and he definitely made up that own umlaut —is in Dubai, like I'm, like, fascinated by this company. But I think it's like, sort of it's fitting in some ways. And that, you know, Monocle is to me, like it's an object of derision, out of Fievel. But at the same time, I'm like, I think they're they do have like a very nuanced point of view of the world. And I'm like, it makes sense. Like, I was thinking this last night, and I was not using mushrooms, but I was like, thinking I'm like, it kind of makes sense. I'm like, it's about like, current affairs. But it's also about like, high end luggage. And it's about like, you know, the airport lounges, and like, you know, hospitality and stuff like this. And I'm like, it makes sense to some degree. It's just very eclectic. But I think it's like, you know, the fact that they have like a creative agency in the back, you know, this is the perfect sort of thing. And it just shows that, you know, media these days is a hustle. It is oftentimes, if you want to have sustainable media businesses, your business is not actually the business of, you know, publishing, for instance, it's like I don't know Monocles, financials or anything like that. But, you know, the fact that it has a creative agency attached to it is clearly very critical. The Monocle minute is part of my morning media diet. And you know what I enjoy? Because I never quite know what I'm gonna get, you reading about a re-opened airport lounge in Baghdad, and then you're taken to the streets of St. Louis. You know, I mean, my wife is Serbian, and I rely on like Monocle for any sort of Balkan related content, you know, like you just really don't get a lot of coverage out of like, what's going on and in Croatia and Slovenia and whatnot.
Trey
But in terms of like, the reason I kind of bring them up is because of the delusion factor, I think, but also be like they've kind of future-proof themselves by becoming almost immune to like, the winds of the economy or whatever, but also, when a lot of media's kind of fracturing and figuring out how they can make money is it through like events and symposiums with speakers where we are like the tastemakers bringing these guests together? Monocles been doing that. You know, is it like a 24 hour radio station? Is it with product? Is it with this like, Monocles been doing that, you know, and I mean? It's like a counterintuitive, like Monocle was right? Right. Exactly. And I think that's also why I'm really interested in Air Mail's business model, especially as like just a pure out and out reader. Like, not only is it like small feeling, even though it's you know, helmed by this legacy media icon Graydon Carter, but like because of him and his community of like pals, I guess and access that he has, you do get these incredible, like access to people that you actually want to hear from and click on versus, you know, the other Conde Nast, whatever that like who knows what Vogue declaring like sleeveless tops to be in for spring? Do you know what I mean? So like they just had a and then they have like their Bruce Bozzi podcast where they have all these like highfalutin guests on, I just think it's like really interesting because it bills itself as this really small niche, like, if you're in the community, you're in it, but there's a clear strategy there for I think, like drawing together the right community before they do expand into hats, which they've done and like, you know, maybe an event soon I'm sure they just went already like Waverly Inn who knows but
Brian Morrissey
But I think that the difference is I think it's it's totally right is the ceiling is just a lot lower, right? Like and you think about it's like Graydon Carter is like a legend of his time. Right, like and like no offense to airmail, but it's like, yeah, it's an email newsletter, right? Yeah, it's not it doesn't feel the heft of media. You know, in media. It was always a lot of smoke and mirrors, right. I mean, when that stuff gets stripped away, and you're just your, your email, you know, or podcast Whatever like and it's just a different business. And I think it's telling when you see where really talented and successful people where they're gravitating towards, and I just look at like, you want to know where things are going follow money and people. And you know, there's not much money in media but like, the people are going to stuff that is small, like I don't spend it like I I've always been attracted to like, the niche stuff versus the mass stuff. And so, for me, I'm like, Oh, welcome, glad you're here. But I part of me is like an observer as like, Yeah, this is sort of those those days are over you know, like mess the messenger is going to like launch soon. This you know, well funded. General news. They're going to do an unbiased Oh, there's a wow, you've arrived. You've arrived at a crazy to hire McKinsey to come up that
Eli
How many more unbiased news.
Brian Morrissey
Unbiased news? Oh, unbiased news.
Eli
Oh, so you're slightly center left?
Trey
Well, that'd be a meter that tells you like, it's a bit this leaning.
Brian Morrissey
When they say its unbias it's gonna be center right. That's what unbiased means.
Eli
Also it's like, is that even, a sorry to completely get off that into the news section.
Trey
It's a triggering word for you, unbias.
Eli
The antidote for news. Is that even sustainable? I mean, like, I don't know, I feel like people tune in this is more cable news driven. But people tune in to Fox and they tune in to MSNBC, like it's, you know, a drug that they are, like, you know, tapped into, and who? I don't know, it's like the BBC, or, you know, I know Chris Licht at CNN, I think that's his name. Well, you know, came in was like enough with the breaking news, chirons or whatever we're not going to do it is unbiased, a sustainable news model at all?
Brian Morrissey
I don't know if it's sustainable in the short term. I mean, I would hope it would be in the long term. And I guess it really depends on the definition of unbiased because everyone, you know, everyone sees bias and other things, but not in what they're doing. You know, I think the the problem is this stuff works like opinion, works, opinion is sticky. And even like with what Chris Licht is trying to do at CNN, one of the problems ends up being in a you need to have personalities and strong like with strong viewpoints that anchor that evening. And like people tune in because they feel a parasocial relationship with the hosts that we see on YouTube and all sorts of things online. That transcends this, like more academic Media Studies, lounge kind of discussion around bias or unbiased and both sides and all that other stuff is a lot of it is around the personality. I mean, if you look at your none of this is total surprise. If you look at like, you know why podcasting is successful? A lot of it is is driven around the personality of the host people. Yes, Joe Rogan has on like a lot of guests and the guests, he but like, Joe Rogan is the value proposition there. And I think cable news understands that all the time. I was back visiting my parents, you know, they watch Bret Baier every night, they're not tuning in to see the crisis at the border, they get the crisis at the border, but they're tuning into Brett, you know, and I think that is probably here to stay to some degree. Now, how people execute on that and whether, you know, some of the voices that are put forward are less sort of shrill and, or catastrophic or, you know, scare monger or I mean, hopefully they will be but you know, I think that there's a reason that formula works.
Eli
Yeah, you know, who else was paying attention? Logan Roy, you know, he says people watch. I watched the nightly segment people watch.
Brian Morrissey
Yeah, exactly. I was looking at that guy. I'm like, yeah, he's kind of point.
Eli
Yeah, the messenger what? So sorry, I completely cut you off. All right. Why should we care about it?
Brian Morrissey
I don't have a good answer.
Eli
Okay, fair.
Brian Morrissey
It's really hard. I just find it's really hard when all of these things when they launch because, you know, like Semafor this I was like saying, it's like Ben and Justin. Like oh, my God just launched the frickin thing already. I'm sick of reading about what you're going to do. Just do it. And I get it. You got to drum up advertising and stuff like this and that's important. But at some point, like, you know, you got to see the product for it to see if it like makes sense. And there's always a way to differentiate by just doing stuff better. And it's hard to see this sort of opening in the market for this kind of product. I know, a lot of people are, you know, there's broad dissatisfaction with the current news landscape and that's fine. But I don't know if there's a way of like solving that, or if, you know, Jimmy and his crew are the people to do it. You know, it's a tough time to be launching a news publication, that's for sure. And I think what's, you know, I'd written a couple of weeks ago, you know, when this thing launches, it's gonna be like, declared dead, right? Like, gets inevitable, like, you know? And I think that's, unfortunately, in some ways, that's part of the current landscape is people just assume things are not going to work, before giving them a chance to work. That said, I don't think this is gonna work.
Trey
I wonder who is sewed this distrust amongst us?
Brian Morrissey
I mean, look, I guess it's good that people are still like, starting like news publications. I mean, I look at like, something like Grid. My God, that thing lasted, like, it seems like nine months. Like, I feel like it had just launched and I just had Brad on a podcast. And I was like, I totally understand this. And now it's gone. It's been wiped off the face of the earth. Like some of these things, I mean, obviously, CNN plus takes the cake on that one. But they did they last longer than Scaramucci?
Eli
I don't know
Brian Morrissey
They didn't even
Eli
Another Galloway project.
Brian Morrissey
Yeah, maybe that's a good reason. Maybe that's why they didn't attach him to The Hundred. But, yeah, I mean, a lot of these things, they don't really last that long. And to me, it's like, look at like the publications that are that are most successful, that have launched, it's like things like Punchbowl News, right? I like what they're doing and everything like this. It's a DC insidery, you know, newsletter, it's fine. Like, that's great, and everything like this, but like, when that is like, one of the most exciting sort of publishing launches then, I think kind of says something about the current state of publishing.
Trey
I just, on one topic we are always kind of talking about on this podcast is like, where's the attention going? It seems like moments and culture are shorter and shorter, the media clearly isn't lasting very long. Like, we're not sure kind of where people are going for their news, or finding out what is happening in culture. And obviously, the brands all want to be part of culture and like, capitalize on these moments that are happening, but are also finding it like harder and harder to break through. So you turn to like paid media, and then there's like, what, three outlets, you know, so I'm just like, it's all sort of one probably snake eating its own tail. But I was just wondering, like, what your thoughts are there?
Brian Morrissey
Well, that's why you end up seeing, like, you know, people just go to like creators and influencers, right? Like, I mean, that's like the sort of easy button, I would guess. It's like, okay, we've got to, we have to, like, integrate ourselves into culture and stuff like this. We can't just do an ad by you know, because none of that stuff is like breaking through. I mean, I just recorded a podcast for this podcast I do called people versus algorithms. And I think it ended up working well, but like, one of my co-hosts, brought on his like, 23 year old like, son which I always wary about like, I don't know.
Eli
How come?
Brian Morrissey
Interviewing children is tough. I know he's 23 but that it's still like...
Eli
I'm closer, Clara and I are you know, only three years off that.
Brian Morrissey
I know, but like it was because he's like, you know, my co-host's son, like it's just a different dynamic. Anyway, I think I pulled it off okay. But I kept quiet a lot. Yeah, but he was talking about like, focus group of one and stuff like this. And it's you always talk with you like young people who are like, Oh, don't pay attention to advertising. I was like yeah I said the same thing when I was 23. Like, I don't know, advertising somehow has always been with us. And I feel like it'll find a way it always finds a way. But yeah, I mean, I think the the normal ways of like, of reaching people are kind of gone in some ways. And so you end up turning to influencers and creators, but then that ends up leading to like the de-influencing, like backlash, because, you know, just because you can gather attention on TikTok or Instagram or stuff like this doesn't mean that you're going to necessarily, you know, have like a great choice and products or something like this. And you see, I've always thought like, you know, a lot of this playbook of developing an audience and then trying to sell them a product, you know? To me, it's like the cart before the horse to some degree. And, and I remember talking with a VC like the other week, and like one of his portfolio companies is like a media company and like, yeah, but now they're gonna sell, like, you know, their products and I'm like, but they're not like, what do they know about making the product because Oh, it doesn't matter. I was like really? I'm like, I've kind of feel like being able to make the product that you're selling is crucial. And he's like, no, you know, it's just a matter of you have attention and the trust of the audience you can like monetize and I'm like, huh, that doesn't sound like long term like and that's I feel like a lot of you know, influencers who create their own products is like eventually like people realize they're shit. Like I haven't had the Mr. Beast burger but I'm feeling tastes terrible. Order one and like are they going to order like you're going to be like a regular at Mr. Beast burger?
Eli
It's the Mr. Beast playbook. That's a Caroline
Clara
Callaway.
Brian Morrissey
What is she selling?
Clara
Tarot cards.
Brian Morrissey
Tarot cards?
Clara
Tarot cards. Our coworker was telling us about it on our walk to the subway a few days ago.
Eli
Wasn't she also selling snake oil?
Clara
And yeah, yeah.
Brian Morrissey
I like that. That's ironic.
Eli
Yeah, that would be the draw.
Brian Morrissey
Like I'm selling snake oil.
Trey
But yeah, I think like the one thing that we haven't quite cracked yet as like a society seeking attention all the time is like, you can rally around an individual. That's clearly why people are like tuning into the news, to hear, you know, have these parasocial relationships. When brands when brands especially like tap these influencers to work with them, even if it is like an extended agreement of like, maybe a month, while they're having their moment on TikTok, or whatever, you know, they rally around this person, if they do, well, great, but they're still discarded, if they don't, they're canceled, and like that was a bad, you know, time for all. So it's just really difficult because there is no longer this, like, the institution, we have no institution to trust as we used to with like, the BBC, or whatever, I mean, I still like the BBC. But in that sense, like you're, you're getting just like fractured blips of attention for whoever's kind of that flavor of the month. And then the brand has to define itself based on these, like, third party influencers that hopefully, like shared their brand values for whatever amount of time they're contracted. Like, I just, I don't know what I'm searching for here. But I just feel like there's no more meaning for sure.
Brian Morrissey
Well I think what you're getting at is like something I've been like, it's like, maybe not, but like, what I was hearing, it's like, it's all ephemeral, right? Like, I think, like, you know, I heard about, like, sustainable media that sometimes I'm wondering, I'm like, maybe that's not possible? Or maybe it's not even preferable, right? Like, maybe we should just have like, ephemeral brands that, you know, they come in, and they go. And, particularly in our current like, environment, like if you think about, like, there used to be even, like, memes and stuff like that they'd be with us for like, seemingly forever. And now like, it's just like, things go, like last a day, like the Balenciaga Pope thing will be is probably already gone. And like, and some people are, like, Oh, I didn't even notice. And that's like, a, sort of a good thing for those of us who don't want to, like spend all our time trying to catch up with whatever the meme is, or who's getting attacked or whatever. It's like, oh, there's someone else who's getting attacked now. But like, I feel like a lot of brands are, are just very ephemeral. And I think particularly with digital media, because digital media has always gravitated towards this direct response kind of thing of like, get someone to click get someone to click get someone to click get them to buy. Because, you know, before when you were usually building brands like through magazine ads and TV commercials like the sale was different than like, you know, the ads. You want to get someone to tell them a story, get them feel something for now, and particularly with with platforms connecting directly into commerce. You just want to get get someone to impulsively buy something. You're not trying to build some sort of brand and stuff like this. So I think that there's a good argument to be made that like, there are going to be far fewer brands that are going to be built that are sustainable, and like maybe the goal should just be like, have something for like five years and then like get out, I guess. I mean, you just see it like it's just in particularly I think with youth, it's just like it's really hard to build a lasting brand tied to a youth demographic because you either you either get older with them or you try to like, you know, you're not gonna get the younger brother or sister they're gonna think like that some brand is, is not for them. I mean, like, I don't know if Vice ever truly meant something to the age group that they claim it to mean. But like, at this point like are you seriously you'd like, you're talking about your your belly like youth culture like with like Shane Smith is like 50 like and like a $50 million mansion like what? It just does doesn't make sense. And I mean I've just seen it like when I was growing up MTV was like, everything. It defined like culture and my teenage years. You know, by the time I was in my mid 20s, like, MTV was like, nothing. It was just where you had like, weird reality TV shows.
Eli
Yeah, now we have Mr. Beast and the Nelk boys. You know, it's like, it's all done.
Brian Morrissey
Is Mr. Beast going to be like popular in like, 10 years?
Trey
He'll be 10 years older that's for sure.
Eli
He'll be selling like mortgage backed securities.
Brian Morrissey
I don't know, does his stunts like maybe he ages out of like, I don't know how physical his stunts are?
Eli
He's going to be like the UN. You know, it's gonna be terrible.
Brian Morrissey
Maybe it's gonna be like the League of Nations. That was like, yeah.
Eli
Yeah that's more accurate. Oh, all right. Well, perfect way to round out convo.
Brian Morrissey
I thought we were gonna do 10 minutes on a League
Eli
A little history lesson for those. I mean, talk about aging out. So Brian, you write a newsletter. You're on to podcasts. Where can our viewers find you?
Brian Morrissey
Oh, yeah. If you could visit the therebooting.com. You can check it all out there. I send a newsletter. It's free and I monetize through advertising through the support of my my partners, my valued partners. And yeah, I do two podcasts. One is called The Rebooting Show and the other is People vs Algorithms.
Eli
All right well, this was great. Thank you for coming on, Brian.
Brian Morrissey
I appreciate it.
Eli
Thanks for listening in. Be sure to check out more on d1a.com/perspectives, and sign up for our bi-weekly newsletter to get the latest trends and insights directly to your mailbox.