Eli

Today on the pod Delia Cai, she's a writer, author. You may know her from Deez Links and her hate reads series, fan favorite. She's also got a new column in Fast Company with Steffi Cao, called posting playbook, all about digital etiquette. I know we all have a lot of thoughts on digital etiquette, for better or for worse, I have been thinking about it since we spoke with her too.

Trey

Is that because you're feeling bad about your own etiquette?

Eli

No, I think I have perfectly fine.

Clara

You're policing other people's etiquette, and what you're saying.

Eli

Yeah.

Clara

Your etiquette is unimpeachable.

Eli

Sure.

Trey

But it's good digital etiquette just being constantly available and replying a lot or?

Eli

I mean, I suppose it's kind of highly subjective, isn't it?

Trey

Yeah.

Eli

I don't know.

Trey

Well, I feel like etiquette, though, should be objective.

Clara

Yeah, I feel like that's the point of it to some extent. I mean, there are rules that we all abide by.

Eli

Yes.

Clara

But I think therein lies the challenge with online etiquette. And that's what Delia was actually talking about. Because I think, isn't it like, generational contrast that they're looking at, like, Gen Z versus millennial etiquette.

Eli

Right, there's a whole this thumbs up actually means you hate me.

Clara

Or like, I think also on, like, a more nuanced level, like, I remember she brought up a few examples of stuff they're exploring, but I think there are differences, right?

Eli

What was the biggest one? And, you know, tune into the whole pod, folks. But the biggest one was, like, posting about, you know, hard hitting social issues, and then having, like, happy birthday to my whole heart, you know, like...

Clara

This girl is 27 today. I can't believe we met six months ago at twins lounge. Every night with you has been a journey.

Trey

Wow, it sounds almost like you put one up today.

Clara

Oh, it's I just, I see so many. Okay, actually, this is one of my, this is one of my etiquette things. I was like, I do think that birthday posting, just like adding someone to close friends, there is an expectation sometimes of reprosity, which is implicit. And I yeah, exactly reciprocity, that is implicit. But I think it should not be like, I don't think we should be like...

Trey

The whole birthday PowerPoint. Let's keep it to a quick one or two slides.

Eli

What are the boards, the Kudo board are gonna start to make Kudo boards for? Okay, sorry, so a small sample size of people who actually understand that.

Trey

If you're deep into corporate culture, you might have received a Kudo board.

Eli

If you have, we'd love to hear from you. We're actually starting our own...

Clara

A competitive podcast.

Trey

Next episode, we talked to the woman who was proposed by via kudoboard.

Clara

Oh, my god, can you imagine.

Eli

That's like a Business Insider article or something?

Trey

Absolutely.

Eli

I found my husband of 14 years via kudoboard. But yeah, I mean, I really enjoy Delia's writing. I loved reading hate read series as well. I am now chomping at the bit to see Twister and 40X as well. So, yeah. Yeah.

Trey

What she wrote about for Vulture. She also worked at BuzzFeed. She worked at Vanity Fair, and she's an author, a published author. Her debut novel, Central Places was published last year, and she is big scoop, working on a new one.

Eli

Wow, resume to strive for.

Clara

Yeah, for real.

Eli

All right, luckily, she's adding one more thing to the resume, an episode of Day One FM, let's tune in. Delia. Welcome to the pod. Thanks for coming through.

Delia Cai

Thank you for having me.

Eli

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Weather is hot, but you did say you saw a twister in 40x and I have to Twister is rather, I have to ask if it was worth it.

Delia Cai

Oh, I think you cannot see it except in 40x like, I think the friends I've asked who've seen it, and they saw it in like, a normal way, they were like, it was okay. And then everyone who I've talked to have seen it in 40x as well. But they're like it's amazing, yeah.

Eli

Is this the first movie you've seen in 40x?

Delia Cai

I have seen, I saw, like, some like, Ryan Reynolds action movie in 40x like, years back, I didn't know what 40x meant. I was like, trying to kill time. I was like, in DC, and I just kind of bought a ticket for a movie. And I was like, I don't know what this means. And when the chair started moving, I like, legit freaked out, because I was like, just by myself in an empty movie on like, a Tuesday afternoon, and I was like, What is this? And it was kind of like, I thought it was kind of like uncool then, because I don't think they really knew what they were doing yet. And it was like, not, it was. Like a great movie, but so I've only done that, and then to go from that, from twisters, is like, you know, it's like, going to see Michelangelo's.

Clara

What are those 4D elements? Yeah, I am curious. Is it like wind rain?

Delia Cai

Yeah, yeah. It is like, the chairs shake you pretty hard.

Clara

Your sandals fell off.

Delia Cai

Yeah. I was kind of like hanging out for dear life at some points. And I also, like, I was with a friend who she, like, we were wearing covid masks, and because she was sort of like, I don't know if I've been exposed, let's just be safe. And so I was like holding the mask in one hand. It's like, holding onto my chair. The other, this is so stressful. Yeah, mask like, coming off. It's like, there's so much going on. My advice is, like, see it in 40x bring a sweater, because it gets really cold, because they're blowing all this air on you and don't eat during it because, like, I was like, I got chicken fingers, and they, like, were blowing water on my chicken fingers. This is so stressful.

Trey

Wait, you're from the Midwest, right? Yeah. So have you had like, a real life tornado experience?

Delia Cai

No. But, like, I remember, like, on the first Tuesday of every month, they test the sirens out, and you can hear them, like, kind of wherever you are in town. I don't know if you guys are from the Midwest, but...

Eli

I went to school in Wisconsin, but I'm from here, so no, no early warning systems here at all. Famously, actually.

Delia Cai

That's kind of my quibble with twisters, is like they make it seem like there's no way to predict, like, the towns people just having little like, baseball game. No, you would, you would be told like, you'd be like, Oh, the weather looks bad. There's a tornado watch, you know. And then you wait until the tornado starts go off, and then it's a tornado warning, which means one has been spotted. So you would not be playing baseball like that, casually out of the open and see a funnel touchdown, and be like, Oh, shit, you know?

Eli

Well, with Project 2025 they're trying to privatize the weather service. So that's true. It's a little bit on footnote. People aren't talking about.

Clara

Infusing levity.

Eli

But before, as always, have you seen the original one? And then we can move on. Okay, it's terrible, but good.

Trey

Oh, you just went straight to the sequel.

Delia Cai

Yeah, I roughly know, like, what it's about, you know?

Trey

But I will say the first one is incredible. Like, so well made.

Delia Cai

Are the effects good? Because I read that like it was like, Oh, this second Twister is like, Thank God we have, like, much better special effects now.

Clara

I mean, they didn't seem corny, like, super dated to me, but kind of maybe, like, a little bit lackluster, definitely not as immersive as Twister sounds now.

Trey

All done on camera, actually, fun fact.

Clara

Really?

Trey

No I don't know.

Eli

All right, cool. Well, I want to get to your newsletter Deez Links. But before that, I was, you know, doing some preliminary research. This is not about throwing fits. But I did see that you're launching, or co-launching a new digital etiquette?

Delia Cai

Yeah.

Eli

Series with Fast Company, right?

Delia Cai

Yeah.

Eli

Or column, rather, sorry.

Delia Cai

We're kind of just like testing it out for fun. I was talking to max at fastco for a little bit, and he pitched this idea to me, and Steffi, and I know Steffi from we used to work together at BuzzFeed. And the joke was always like, she's kind of, she's like, my Gen Z person, like, I always ask her, like, you know everything, I'm like, can you help me edit this photo? Like, can you make my teeth straight, or whatever? Like, whatever magic you know how to do? And then I'm like, her, like millennial person, where she's just like, like, we, we were at a party, and she brought out her like, like, little digital camera, and she's like, I don't know how to work this, but you seem like you would know how to use and I was like, well, it's not that hard. But yes, I do, you know. So we're kind of, so we're sort of like, this would be a fun concept to do where it's like, you ask, because I think, I think the digital etiquette expectations are different, depending on if you ask someone who's a Gen Z or versus, like, you know, a millennial. And so...

Trey

Would you argue that one generation has etiquette and the other perhaps does not? Or is that the hottest take you've ever heard?

Delia Cai

I think, well, I would think in terms of like, one having more etiquette than the other is probably like, I think Gen Z knows more has more rules. So I think they, yeah, I think they've got sort of more of, like a codified like, you wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't do that. You know?

Clara

Do you have like any emerging examples of, like, digital etiquette, preview?

Delia Cai

Well, one of the questions that we're sort of wrestling over to answer together is just, sort of like, you know, when bad things are happening in the world, you know, what's the kind of approach we should all have when it comes to like, you know, are you gonna post like, atrocity vacation. Atrocity vacation. Because it's like, we all see that. We all feel weird about it. We all kind of do it too, because of like, a million reasons. And I was, I've been noodling nn that for a couple of weeks. And I actually think I've come to the answer, at least, like, my framework for which is that, like, you shouldn't post anything you're not talking about in real life. And I think that's just, like, a good rule of thumb. And I think people should just go by that versus like, what is the correct amount of like, you know, memes to shots of your vacation, to like, world news. I think that's, like, personal. I don't think there's, like, a hard and fast rule, you know. I think that's what people kind of want, but...

Trey

Or is it at all going into, like, historical, you know, like etiquette from the past, where it was like, no politics, no money, discussion, oh no, right? And now it's like we are almost forced to have a stance, regardless of, like, your platform or your audience, you have to post.

Delia Cai

Yeah, it's like, everyone's a little bit of a celebrity and now you kind of have to comment on everything. And I think that's a very strange expectation to have, because it's like, I sort of just personally don't think celebrities need to comment on everything, because it's like, well, you don't have a you know, you're an actor. You don't have a degree in International Relations, it's okay that you talk like you don't.

Eli

The Security Council. It's okay.

Trey

Yeah, you get like the Imagine Gal Gadot video.

Delia Cai

Yeah, yeah. You get stuff like that. And then you're like, Oh, I guess that is what they know how to do.

Trey

We did ask for this.

Clara

Vanderpump, speaking out about the Trump assassination on Tiktok. I don't know. She was like, this is like, really not right, you guys. I was like, girl. Last person to be speaking about what's right and wrong. But...

Eli

Was she the one who did the cheating or got cheated on?

Clara

She's the one who did the cheating. Not to rehash Vanderpump lore from two years ago.

Trey

We're still posting about it.

Eli

I know it's early days, but are people pitching you good or bad etiquette, or, like, questions, or is it more like, Oh, this is something I've been thinking about, or both?

Delia Cai

Both, like we were just, we kind of just opened it up to, like, our friends on Instagram and like, Twitter was just like, do you have questions? And like, I think everyone does. Like, I think you know, most are not posting. Like, yeah, I know exactly what I'm doing. So it was kind of, it started just like, a lot of great conversations with just, like, our own friends, or just like, what do you do when you haven't followed back someone who's been following you for a while and now it's too late. It's gonna be too obvious. But like, you know, do you just keep digging yourself in a hole like that? So it's kind of comforting in a way. That's like, oh yeah. Everyone has these questions.

Eli

You're randomly, you're randomly close friended now, like...

Trey

I see a lot of the meme that's like, yeah, I would post about my missing sister, but, like, not now, Mama doesn't fit the esthetic or whatever.

Clara

Can we get a peach backdrop please? That wanted ad? It's a little garish mom.

Trey

It's true, though. I think a lot of like, I'm not gonna go on this tangent, but like, a lot of activism's issue is, like, aesthetic. You know, we had that whole talk about, like, the kind of Technicolor, Instagram carousel activism thing, but I still feel like there's not an esthetic way yet to post about atrocities.

Delia Cai

Well, I think, I mean, I don't know how deep you want to get in this, but I think that's why that like, weird AI, photo that was like, I think that's why that went so viral. Like, this looks nice. Which, you know, such a crazy, icky, like, response. But it was like, well, it's this, or, like, you know, something way less aesthetic.

Trey

That would get blocked by the sensors like anyway, yeah, it's really interesting.

Eli

The sterile version. Well, I have a lot of digital etiquette questions, so I'll just be on the lookout. And then maybe if you get kind of a anonymous is this cool or is this not? It might be from me. But okay, so let's, let's get on to your newsletter. I know you've been working in media for a while, but Deez Links you've had for eight years. Is that right? Nine?

Delia Cai

Yeah, eight years.

Eli

What's good with that?

Delia Cai

Just like, what? Like, what's the deal with that? Or?

Eli

Yeah well, I'm curious, you know, why'd you start it? What is encompassed by?

Delia Cai

Um, so I, so I went to journalism school at Mizzou, and I just remember they were like, going to Mizzou was like, $5 and it's one of its many, many benefits. But the other benefits, like the J-school there, is really great, and they're all about, they want to be as practical as possible. And so literally, we'd have these classes where the homework was like, make a Twitter account, make a blog post on it, like, you know, at least once a week. And so it kind of got us all trained very early to understand that like you need to be constantly, just like making stuff for yourself and putting yourself out there. So after school, I had my first job was like this fellowship at Atlantic media. And I was put in sort of this, like, kind of strategy research role. And like, you know, I was, like, 22 I didn't even know what that meant, but there were other fellows there who had sort of plummeter Fellowship positions where they were, like on editorial they were at, like the Atlantic proper. And I was really jealous of them, because, you know, was watching them, and then I was watching other friends who graduated from J-school. They were starting to get bylines, they were starting to get published. And I was like, I'm just making like, decks. And I just learned what decks are, you know, and I was like, I don't really, this is a totally different world. And I was really jealous. And I at the same time I was sort of because of that job. I was supposed to just be doing a ton of research on what was going on in media. And I ended up, just out of practicality, subscribing to a lot of newsletters, just to kind of figure out, like, what's going on. And I found a bunch of these newsletters over time that were just like, really fun to read, and just like, made the day go by faster. It was like Caitlin Dewey's links. I would Gchat you for friends. It was like, Rusty Foster's day in tabs and Friedman weekly. She also, she's a Mizzou alum. And so I was always like, Oh, she's so cool. And so I think over time, I was just like, oh, well, like, it seems like, you know, in school, they taught us you should have a blog, but seems like the new thing now is newsletters. And so maybe I'll just like, basically, like, move my blog onto there, and just sort of start, just start, like, kind of get the posting impulse out there. And I really, like, there was this old, not old, but like, there was this, like, sort of website that was around for like a year or two called this.com like, t h, i s period, and it was started by Andrew golis, who I think was at Vox afterward or before, but he basically made it as like an artisanal Twitter. So it was like, you could make an account and you could share links, but you could only share one link a day. And I loved that idea of like, if you could only share one thing a day, what would it be? And so I was like, Well, I'm gonna do this newsletter where I'm just gonna, like, send my friends, like, one thing to read every day, and I'll just try to come up with something intelligent to, like, riff on it, or to say about, like, why they should read this. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this at my day job, because otherwise the job is really boring. And so so I just started from there where I was just like, I'm really bored at this job, and I want to just kind of figure out, like, how to even have an opinion on things and get myself into this, like, I gotta write something, I gotta make something every day, and then just kind of snowballed from there, like, I mean, like, Please don't go back and read the early years, because it was really bad.

Eli

Well, we have, and we brought in with us.

Delia Cai

It's so bad, you know, it's like a, it's a 22 year old trying to figure out, like, what is this industry really about? And I ended up, I think, I think that's kind of like, how I got my jobs, though, for a while was like, after that, I went to work on the Atlantic's marketing team. And I remember they really like, like, the newsletter as well. And they also kind of were, like, pretending like they didn't know I was working on it also at work.

Eli

Yeah, was that weird or, like, not really?

Delia Cai

Because it got, it was short, you know, it was just like, an hour a day or whatever. And I would, sort of, I remember, I would, like, schedule it to go at, like, 6:05pm, so you could sort of say, like, oh, who knows how she...

Trey

She's off the clock. Like timing, yeah. Well, they can't say anything now it's been 5 minutes.

Delia Cai

And so, and then, like, after that, I wound up at BuzzFeed. And I didn't know at the time, but later I thought at the like, you know, one of the things that they look for when they're hiring at BuzzFeed is like, you know, do you, are you making your own shit? Like, are you? Do you have, like, a weird podcast about, like, the Babysitter's Club or, you know, any kind of proof that you're just like, you're actually interested in making stuff on the internet. And so they're like, oh, like, you have this newsletter. That's cool. So I worked at BuzzFeed for a couple of years doing really random things, like odd Dev and, like making quizzes. And...

Eli

I was just gonna ask, what like? So for a quiz you come with, kind of like, I have an idea for what would be a good quiz, or it's like, more around Game of Thrones is, like popping off right now. So we need to, like, what type of Lannister would you be, or whatever. That's a very dated reference. But...

Delia Cai

Yeah, that was the year I was there, so that really, like, revives. It was kind of both, because there were people there who, like, geniuses, like, they're like, my friend Sarah, who was there, I think she's still there, like, legit genius, like, thinks very strategically about how to, almost, like, create a whole new format out of a quiz. And then there's sort of the rest of us were sort of a bit more of, like, traffic hounds, and we'd just be like, Okay, this format, plus this topic did really well. Like, let's tweak one of these and see if we can, like, do it again. So it's just kind of just kind of constantly experimenting and then trying to, trying to, like, build on, build on that each time in terms of, like, Okay, well, this work this time. How do we do that again?

Eli

Now they got, like, Vivek Ramaswamy is, like, a major kind of...

Delia Cai

I know. But I don't know what he's doing though, because...

Eli

A quote, unquote activist investor.

Because they were, he was sort of like, uh, you know, I want BuzzFeed to like, I think he said something like, he's like, I want you guys to like, erase all your like past like coverage. I don't know if it was either. He basically was trying to influence, sort of, like, both what was still in the archives and what they were covering. And I think like, Jennifer was just like, no, like, I don't know who you are.

Eli

Yeah, get this freak shit out of here.

Trey

I do want to stick a bit on the like quiz of it all, only because I think that now we're really in this era or moment. I hate the word era, but, like, moment, I guess, where people now go to the New York Times, more to play the games than they do to really actual news stories on social, social media, especially for brands, I think a lot of things that are more successful now on social is like, franchised content, repeatable formats that, you know, gamifies something. And I think that, well, there's probably a longer history, but I think BuzzFeed really pioneered that and like, brought it forefront in the mainstream. So even though it might seem like dismissive about like, Oh, what, what Lannister might you be, I do think there's like, something really interesting in that legacy. And I'm curious, like, if that was something that was top of mind while you worked there, or if it just kind of was, like in the ether, and you kind of pulled it out, and it became a big thing.

No, I think, like, I remember going to BuzzFeed starting there, and thinking like, I bet everyone here is really stuck up, but everyone's just obsessed with clout. And, you know, everyone's just trying to go viral on their own terms. But it was genuinely like, it felt like just hanging out and talking to people who were just genuinely, like, such nerds about the internet, and they're really invested in this idea of figure out, like, what makes someone share something like, what, you know, what kind of, what they're sort of forming this, like, theory of the internet and how it worked, and sort of the theory of, like, like, mid 2010, social media, where it's like, like, I just remember They had this whole, I'm like, I don't think this is proprietary knowledge, but there'd be this whole ethos of like, you know, to understand why someone is sharing something. Think about what job it's performing. And we would, we would try to distill like, you know, a dozen or so like jobs that a piece of content could perform. And one of them was like, you know, showcasing like, this is me, which is, like, the most powerful job that anything can do, if you just give someone an excuse to talk about themselves through, you know, something else, like every time people are going to want to do it. So it felt very almost like academic in some ways, because we would sit around talking about this, and, you know, we try to puzzle through problems like, Why aren't guys sharing stuff the same way that girls share stuff online? No, I don't think anyone has cracked it because, like, I mean, I was just talking to someone the other day where they're like, you know, the cut is doing all these crazy viral essays, but where is like, the men's version of that? And we were like, well, A, I don't think men obsess over things and think about it and write essays about them, but B, they don't share these things. Being like, C, C, like, I'm not crazy. You know, I was just like, I think it is like, almost like a, very like, almost like feminine behavior, to be sharing things in that way, as like, a way of bonding versus I think guys. I think guys share memes, dunk on each other and on themselves. It's like less to like bond. It's less to be like, I see you. You see me. This is more like, like, this meme about your pants is so like, real, you know?

Clara

Yeah, and I mean not to, not to drag the others in the room. But I also think, like, to your point, there's so many different like facets, I would say, for like, why women share things amongst themselves. Like, because, like, some stuff I share with my mom, and I'm like, you'll think this is so cute, or, like, this reminds me of you some stuff I share with my friends. Like, remember that girl from that one time? This reminds me of that girl from that one time. Yeah, there's like, deep, I mean, this word has been used too much recently, but like, deep lore involved, I feel like, I'm like, you'll get why this is funny. And it's like, not objectively funny, but like anything that I get, to be honest, from a guy is like, like, it's a funny thing. You know what? I mean, it's not...

Delia Cai

Like specialized.

Clara

Just not the focus, yeah.

Eli

Sometimes.

Clara

No, the links I send you are special.

Eli

They're very special to me.

Trey

This is what we've been discussing a bit, maybe on like, a few couple podcasts. But like, they're, I'm noticing a lot in my feeds that they're like this subset of entrepreneur Miami crypto kind of guys that are like DM mes marketing or DM me sauce to get the info. And like, they all have friends that are the exact same ilk. They're all, like, 23 in Miami, whatever. And I feel like it's this almost hyper masculine version of, like, female MLM stuff. And that content gets shared, like, have, I don't know, for real. But like, I think it gets shared a lot amongst men. And it's sort of like the narrative of, like, look at the watch you can have and, like, the car you can drive and stuff, versus, and I think that that's like, shared earnestly, and then it's like, oh, completely.

Eli

Because I feel like I kind of share it for like, a hate watch.

Clara

Well, if you look at the comments. Like, if you look at the comments, like, to Trey's point, when it's one of those ones, it's like, comment guop, to get my like, specialized guidebook. You go in the comments, and it's like, guop.

Trey

Right, and then you you happen upon someone you know who's commented guap, and that's the scariest part.

Clara

Out them here on the podcast.

Trey

No, I sent this. I sent this like meme to my friend yesterday. And then I was laughing at it, because it was, like, completely describing this person, we know, like, it was like, oh, girlfriend who's a PR baddie and, like, you know, whatever. And then the boyfriend who's, like, the finance guy who funds her trips to Italy in like, a house in Soho. And I was like, Oh, my God, this is like, bleep person. And then I was, like, laughing at it, like, hehe, and then I went back to it and saw that that person had liked it. And I was like, I wonder if she sees herself in this. Because, like, you just changed some words, and it was her, you know, I don't know.

Eli

Damn, I would unmask them.

Trey

Well the job it performed. Was like, what was the job I see myself in this or whatever.

Delia Cai

Yeah. She was probably like yeah, smash that like.

Trey

Like that's hilarious, couldn't be me.

Eli

Alright well speaking of hate watch, I want to talk about hate reads, which was, I suppose, a newsletter within, like, a pop up newsletter within Deez Links, right? So what was, what's kind of the backstory on that?

Delia Cai

Oh, my god, I miss it so much. It feels like years ago.

Eli

We miss it too.

Delia Cai

So this is like, when I was waiting to get laid off all like, like, so I knew I was gonna be laid off in November, and I didn't get laid off from cutting us until May, mid May, and so I just remember thinking, like, what am I gonna do with all this time? Because I we had no idea how long it was gonna last, because we were waiting for for the Union to to, like, finish bargaining at our contract and all of that. And it's illegal. You can't find you can't stop until that's amazing. I didn't know nobody had rules like that. Yeah. I was like, Listen, my parents are immigrants and, like, sometimes you just lose your jobs, right? Just accepted. So I was, I just kind of remember, like, starting 2024 being like, what do I really want to do this year since, like, clearly I'm gonna lose my job. And I was like, you know, I I loved, like, kind of building Deez Links up, but it's definitely just been a kind of me and myself thing. And, you know, I think especially after the pandemic, was like, I'm trying to just, like, be alone in my apartment less, whether it's just, like, figuratively or like, physically. And so my goal was like, I want to make something cool with friends. Because I think also, you know, it's such an interesting time in media where it's like, yeah, a lot of these, like, big, sort of more iconic places are kind of on the decline, or they're slowing down. But you're also seen, like, these amazing zines, kind of coming up and throwing parties, and it seems like everyone, seems like everyone's making a zine again. And so I was just like, I want to do that, but I don't know how to make a literal zine. Like, I don't know anything about printing or where you can, like, get the paper, but I do know how to do a newsletter. And so I was just kind of going through some ideas for, for like, what this, like, zine slash newsletter would be about. And I think I just, I had lunch with my friend Chris Guy Molly at one point, and I was just like, you know, I really want to make a zine where it's just, like, anonymous reviews, because it seems like no one can really do an honest review anymore. There's no one can really do snarky anymore. And I was kind of also I was like, you know, speaking for myself as well as like, I feel like I used to make these links pretty snarky because I wasn't really in the media. And now it's sort of like, well, I can't really make fun of, you know, all these things, because I either know this person or I just know this game a little bit too well. And it's like, oh, they're gonna come after me next. And it's just, you know, everyone's just trying to, like, get along. And so we're just joking about that. And then I think at one point he's just like, you should actually do that. And so I was like, Okay, we're gonna, I'm just gonna ask, like, my friends if they want to, like, just write an anonymous blog about something that they hate, and we're just gonna start publish them, publishing them once a day. That's clearly my thing. Kind of your guys thing, too. Day one, once a day.

Eli

That's what it's supposed to be.

Yeah, I don't want to, like, sell myself short and be like, I never thought it would get really big. I was kind of like, what if this is, like, the thing that I read on Twitter talks about for a few weeks like, that would be really cool. And so I think, like, it's actually, if you go back and look at it, the first few are kind of like all over the place in terms of like tone and like meanness, like the second one is really mean. And looking back, I'm kind of like, okay, you're trying to make a splash, obviously. But if. I had thought about it more, I think I would have put the meaner ones at the end, because then it was just sort of like, oh, we had a really mean one yesterday, and then today's is just kind of like, about, like, golden doodles, which is funny, but it sort of feels a little bit like, like, I wish we had built a bit more momentum. But that second week when the men's were one hit, I had no idea, like, none of these were, I was like, This one is for sure gonna make people mad. I was just sort of like, we're just gonna see what, what sticks, you know, I like, because they, the writers, all pick their own topics. And I would just be like, Yeah, I think that'll be good.

Eli

So they pitch it, yeah, and what's, what's kind of like, what is a legitimate hate?

Clara

How much do you hate it on scale of 1-10.

Eli

Which is an odd way of phrasing it, but like, what's kind of a legitimate grievance or gripe that you would be like, Okay, this is interesting. First, like, I can't stand when people listen to, like, reels on the train with their headphones off.

Oh yeah. I mean, I was kind of open to anything, because I was just sort of like, you know, asking your friends to write something for you is it's a bit like pulling teeth sometimes, because it's like, they'll say yes, and then, like, for weeks they'll be like, so, you know, can we, can you send that to me? And so I was sort of like, you can do whatever you want. But some they would pitch me a few ideas and be like, you know, I think. And maybe this is kind of like the BuzzFeed muscle command, where I was just like, Oh, I know people get mad about this on the internet. Well, we definitely have to do that, you know, yeah.

Trey

I think it's like fair to say that the reason that they blew up and did so well on social, online, you know, got so much traffic, is because, well, without knowing all of the writers were anonymous, but I think you can tell by reading that the writers are so close to the topics that they covered that they like, really knew what they were writing about, and so for that reason, it was, like, this opinion or this hot take is coming from somebody who truly knows what they're talking about, and not just like some random blogger who's like, I hate, you know, the reels being on the subway. So I think it's passionate.

Eli

When they pour it hot coffee over ice, and call it iced coffee. I hate that too.

Trey

Right? Yeah, but yeah. You know, I think I don't have like, any stats in front of me, but I think it's important to quantify, like, how crazy this became. Like, this took over my Twitter timeline, at least. But like, I know everybody was talking about it, trying to, like, decipher who wrote what, like, who could have been it.

Delia Cai

Oh, my god. Someone asked me. They were like, did Noah, like, Shockman Write one of these? And I was like, if you think I have, like, the former editor of Rolling Stone on, like, speed dial, like, that's awesome. But, like, no, it's not, Noah.

Eli

It's a dark time for media. You never know.

Delia Cai

He's really bored right now. But you know, my theory of why that week went really well is because I think it was raining really hard in New York all week, and ever was mad and we had nothing else to do. Like I think if that, if that had been a beautiful week, I don't think, I don't think it would have done so well.

Trey

Well, yeah, I think, I think it's interesting too. I mean, that's probably fair. I also think weather is really important, but twisters go see understated.

Eli

No, that happens every day. It's different every day.

Trey

So for those who have not checked it out, there was one particular one about the state of menswear and how, you know, I think a lot of men or younger influencers, specifically, the way they're talking about menswear, and like fashion in general, is very uninformed, and it's very like samey. And I think that there's sort of, it's almost like become meme culture, in a sense, and the writer in particular, like, took grievance with that and in a really impactful way. But I think like that is, I don't know, I want to talk about the anonymous, like anonymity, anonymity anonymity. And, yeah, I can't say that. But like in that, to kind of circle back, it's sort of like a repeatable format that you can imagine does really well, because even when you were at Vanity Fair, I'm not sure if you had anything to do with this at all. But like when they did the ballot, like who voted for the Oscar ballot, things like anonymous ballot, or whatever it's called. I think that, like, every year, riles people up, like, oh my gosh, this person, like, is voting for green book and they shouldn't be, or whatever. So in that sense, I just want to talk about the format of it all. You know, first of all, like you're handing it over, as if it's like an editor takeover. Second of all, it's anonymous, so that, like, people can feel free to say what they want to without, like, the, I don't know, the pressures of like, editorial.

I feel like I learned a lot about anonymity doing this because I always thought, like, you know, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna publish the writer's name, so that way people kind of don't have to, like, come after them, you know, if they're making fun of Taylor Swift's outfits. But I actually think it also worked both ways, whereas, like, if people don't know who it is, and they can kind of say whatever they want about it online, and they don't have to be like, Oh well, you know, I can't make fun of this person's essay because I actually know them. Or like, you know, I might want a job. I want, might want to work for them one day or something. So it's like, I think it freed up everyone on both sides.

Trey

Yeah. And it's interesting, because, like, that is, you know, a smaller scale version of now, people reviewing the tortured poets department album from Taylor Swift, and literally publishing the review anonymously. I forget which website it was that did that, but, like, they were, like, due to the past hate we've received from Swifties. We are now not putting a name on these articles, which is so I don't know.

It's so wild, I think in a way, it's just because, like, the internet has kind of gotten not big, but sort of out of context, where it's like, I felt like the Twitter I joined in, you know, like in college and whatever. It was so small that it was like, no one's gonna see your stuff who isn't really supposed to see it. And, you know, it's not like you're gonna tweet some, like, vaguely problematic joke, and you know, tomorrow some like, viral account is gonna, like, have your name and your face. You know, it's like, you feel like you can kind of control the scale of things. And I think now it's totally out of control. You have no idea, like, what, what's gonna go viral and what's gonna get picked up and, you know, is so I, I think it's crazy, but I think it's kind of it makes sense that it's like, yeah, we're just not gonna put this person's name on every like, Taylor Swift stands, you know, like, like map.

Eli

Did anyone want to put their name on it?

I mean, there were some people who were like, just openly, like, tweeting about of like, oh, this is what I wrote, you know. And I was just like, that's fine if you want to, like, own up to it. But there were some people who were like, take this secret to your grave. I can't even tell your children. And I was like, okay, like, we did a blood oath and now we're sworn to secercy.

Eli

Yeah, you shook on it.

Clara

Yeah. I guess I'm also like the anonymity, and...

Trey

It's hard to say.

Eli

Anonymity.

Clara

It's also interesting, because I feel like so much of social now has become very like who you are. Is what makes it interesting, to a large extent, you know, like that. You know, whether it's just like an Instagram app that's kind of trendy, like the new Nolita dirtbag take, or whether it's like the latest evil story in the cut, you know, a sort of hate read, I guess, adjacent, but obviously putting names to it. But I think there's something kind of like old internety, too, about publishing anonymously, or just like, reading things by people that you maybe know who they are, but you don't know exactly, specifically who it is, kind of like blind items from the hatred depths.

Delia Cai

Yeah, yeah. And I think it also sews a little bit of, like, almost like healthy paranoia, where just, like, Wait, like, this could be anyone, yeah, this person.

Clara

It's like, The speculation is a lot of the fun of it.

Trey

Or worse, it could be about me.

Eli

Yeah, did you there's this trend platform, it's British, that necessarily makes a difference. But we, I was doing some snooping earlier, and one of their, like recent trends, is called Safe hate spaces. And the gist this is their words, normalizing and connecting over the act of complaining and...

Delia Cai

Oh, I love that.

Eli

Yeah. Well you were included.

Delia Cai

Am I on a deck somewhere?

Eli

Well, now it's a deck because it's paywalled, but, yeah.

Delia Cai

Sweet, that's so exciting.

Eli

Yeah, we'll send it in the in the care package together.

Clara

Hate reads by Deez Links.

Delia Cai

Oh my god, amazing.

Trey

It's being studied.

Eli

It's fun. I mean, it's kind of the way, I comesume a lot of media, for better or for worse.

Trey

I think, though it's also interesting to mention, and I don't know the stat either off top my head, but I did see recently that, like Reddit, as a social platform, has become even more popular, like it's really growing in popularity in this point when, like, all the other very identifiable platforms and you have to be a real person on, are like, kind of fracturing.

Delia Cai

I was just talking to a friend when we were like, talking about the dye work where, like, Derek guy, and we were just like, This man is a genius, especially because we don't know anything about him. We don't know what he looks like, we know his name, we don't know anything else, and he's just kept that shit locked down. And really, I think this is his genius, because people cannot really hit back at him. You know, he's sort of like Batman. He's like in the air, and you can't really get a sense of like, like. You can't villainize him. You can't really, you can't really go and make fun of him. And I think that's genius, because I think so much of coming up on the internet where you know, you're taught like you should be a person, you should be a brand, like you should be everywhere. And I think actually, there's so much power and being very, very unknowable. No, no.

Trey

I think,can I like, pose a theory that I think in 2017 when brands started to become like anthropomorphized, and we had Mr. Peanut, his baby peanut so and then I think in the, you know, preceding years, brands fell over themselves to like, personify themselves and give them like a. Real. You know, relatable personality is the pendulum swinging where now it's better to be brand as brand and impenetrable. Do not come for me.

Delia Cai

Because I think if you have are a post persona, or you, like, cultivate a persona, you're kind of held to that, like, you have to stay the same. You can't really, I mean, outside of, like, sort of consciously being like, this is my rebrand. This is my new era. You know, it's sort of, it's almost feels like, like, you know, when you're 13 and you pick out your Gmail, you don't realize this is the email you're gonna be saddled with forever. I think it's sort of like that, of like, if you're gonna really put yourself on the internet, it's gonna be there people are gonna always associate that with you.

Trey

Yeah. And then when you want to release women's world, it's not, it's gonna peak at like number 79 in the billboard chart.

Delia Cai

She really should have done that under like a new project name or, yeah, then that would have been interesting.

Clara

Katy Perry, her new tragic song.

Trey

She offered to Kamala Harris for her ad, and Kamala turned it down.

Clara

Imagine.

Delia Cai

For that to be public news.

Trey

I'm like, I'm almost wondering if she is now planting these own fail stories about her to, like, create this effect.

Eli

Do you thinkn the Harris campaign had, like, a huddle. Like, okay, guys so, like, are we? Are we doing this?

Trey

Like, absolutely.

Delia Cai

Somebody had to make a PowerPoint for Kamals. Just like, Okay, stay with me. Like, this is Charlie XCX.

Clara

Well, we've been talking about, like, how sort of surreal the past few days have been of like, like, I was listening to NPR this morning with King Brian Lehrer doing his like, Collins or whatever, and he's talking with the guest about Brad, and he's like, yes, and in Kamala is Brad, and she is coconut. Anyway, our next and, like, the whole thing is, like, so bizarre.

Trey

We're just talking in this weird, memeified lanuage.

Clara

Yeah, finding all of like, this internet discourse, like, find its way into like, traditional media formats, if that makes sense of like, then it's like, okay, now on to you, Brad, what do you make of brat? Are you brat? And it's like, a bunch of, like, 40 year old, well, good naturedly. Like, I'm sure you've been tracking it.

Trey

This was interesting. I actually, I forgot to bring this up because I wanted to ask you about this. But there, this is, like, neither here nor there, either. But like, there is a job going. Where did I put it? I put it? Oh, yeah, okay.

Delia Cai

I find it shocking, because I just think that, like, for a long time, we were sort of told maybe through like, the Trump campaigns of like, online is real life and to sort of see. And so I felt like, you know, we're all sort of chastising each other for like, oh, the you know, the kind of political sentiment whatever you see online does not translate to real world consequences. And so I was shocked that like, Joe stepped down and like comment was in because I was like, whoa. I just thought this was, like, what people on Twitter think. And, you know, for like, so for that to happen, and for like, the memes come with it, is really wow. To me. I feel like, almost like, like, this is a wall that's been broken. I've just like, oh, maybe everything is online. Or at least, what's important is, is online.

Trey

Well, yeah, because so after President Biden stepped down or whatever, from his reelection campaign.

Eli

Speaking of digital etiquette, to drop a letter versus go online first go. You know, do a televised thing.

Trey

I love that though because I think there's like tradition of dropping like physical media, like printing, let me finish. Let me finish.

Eli

Gen Zers are seeking out more real forms of media from their leaders.

Trey

No, like the CNN anchor holding up like a printed out version of the brand, like the Kamala HQ thing. And then, just like you have an like, inherent meme of some woman holding up like a sign thing that I can edit anything onto. Okay, but back to my real question here. So I am not going to, like, name this person, but my feed is very like, journalism heavy, and this person's like, I'm looking to expand my pool of freelance writers who are knowledgeable about memes, internet personalities and streamers for stories as I define the culture direction, the internet culture direction of this website, which is like, okay, whatever normal tweet, but I'm like, nowadays, everybody in media is like, on a real hunt to find the people who can, like, justify and quantify and like speak to the value of these memes, this internet language, the stuff that's like happening in the quote, unquote discourse that is like, you have to be so online pilled to, like, explain to boomers, or whoever the audience is, what something means. And so like, the real cache now is knowing about, like, the most online version of things, if that makes sense.

Delia Cai

Yeah. And I'm sort of skeptical. Where I'm like, is that really actually useful to like a normal person? Do they like? Is it really gonna markedly shape their life to know what like? I mean, even just like the latest Tiktok trend is it's like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how. Why? Wide spread. It really is, because I think, like, for sure, it's different generationally, but also, like, I don't know, because it used to be like, Oh, someone in the middle of America, in, you know, like, Columbia, Missouri, is not going to care about this. And it's like, well, I don't know. Like, everyone is kind of really online also, right? Yeah. So it's, it's hard to kind of figure out, like, to what degree we are all experiencing the same reality online.

Trey

I think that's kind of, you know, back to your point about like things now are so big on the internet that, like you could be speaking to a living room size audience, but like you could be reaching the world. And I think that some people who are speaking to a living room sized audience about Kamal is brat, are now speaking to the world by like, CNN, you know, talking heads or something.

Eli

Except more people are gonna see the Tiktok than the CNN.

Trey

Exactly. And like, I'm not sure if that's scary or great, that internet culture is like so proliferated in society. And with that...

Eli

With that, we have a series of one off, quick hit questions for you before we culminate the recording. All right, where are we? Where are we starting? Okay, maybe like a niche account or like social page or creator that we should all be tapped into.

Delia Cai

I'm trying to figure out, what is do you guys follow Starworld labs?

Eli

No.

Delia Cai

It's like, I think it was one of those sort of Upworthy but for Instagram that I used to follow, because he just kind of had, like, random wholesome things would be like this, like Japanese craftsman, like, crafted really hard, and he made this, you know, and I feel like I'm watching them pivot, like, in real time to to, like, like, like, breaking news, because that's how I found out about the Trump getting shot. I was looking at it, and I was like, Is this real? This is Star World labs. Like, what's going on here? This looks really real, but it before it was kind of wholesome. And now I know, I don't know. Now, they've kind of gone, like, they're just covering the hell out of it. They're reacting. Thank you. So I don't know how I feel about them now, but they used to be really fun, and it would just be like, kind of random, wholesome, like, little stories of like, oh, this, like, cat weighed for his owner, like, for 90 years, or whatever. So, yeah, I don't know if that's as well, but I'm kind of obssesed. I don't know what their deal is.

Eli

Yeah, it's like she survived until 115 off a diet of Diet Mountain Dew and fish and chips.

Delia Cai

Kind of like that trashy just sort of like Instagram fodder, like, not really that relevant, but kind of interesting.

Clara

Yeah, like that one that always goes around with the guy that planted the whole field of flowers for his wife, because she couldn't, she couldn't see, but she could smell.

Trey

Oh, I have never seen it.

Eli

And she was highly alerted.

Clara

This is, like, big like, Girl sending to girl. Like, if he wanted to, he would.

Eli

All right, offline-ish recommendation. This could be a restaurant, album, book.

Delia Cai

My God, I just saw a job. Have you guys seen that? The play? Oh, job.

Trey

No. But I'm curious.

Delia Cai

Everyone who's like, a little bit internet pill. Should see it, because it's crazy. It's crazy. Like, at first you're gonna be like, this is a little bit boring. It's like a tech, like a millennial tech worker having a therapy session. And at first it's kind of like, this is, you know, kind of slow, but it's like, the most insane, like, slow boil, insane twist ever, to the point where at the end, I was just like, oh my god, I have to go home and, like, think about it.

Trey

It's not a comedy. Then I was like, itlooks like a Rory, like a Rory comedy?

Delia Cai

No, no. It's like, 80 minutes, no, intermission. It's, I think it got really big on Tiktok. Someone was promoting on Tiktok, and so all the like, young people are going, But it's good. It's worth it. Okay, that's

Eli

That's how I heard about it.

Delia Cai

And that's on Broadway.

Trey

Oh, Mary, I need to make my way.

Eli

Okay, what's your screen time looking like?

Delia Cai

I think my phone, it's like about four hours.

Eli

Yeah, that's pretty good.

Delia Cai

It's mostly because I'm on the bigger screen.

Eli

Yeah. And is big screen for you an iPad, or is that a computer?

Trey

Oh pleast stop pushing the agenda.

Clara

Eli has two handles on either side.

Delia Cai

I have, like, a formative memory of being, I have a former member of being in J school, and David Granger came to visit campus, and that was, like a big deal, because we're like, oh, the editor of Esquire in Missouri. And I remember he went to this whole presentation where he showed us, like, the future of magazines, which was designing a magazine cover so that you could, like, scan it with your iPad, and then the person would walk around on the iPad, and he's just like, Isn't this cool? And we're like, yeah, we're all gonna, like, consume magazines via, like, our iPad and this print thing for sure, that's what's gonna happen.

Clara

Oh, my god, yeah.

Eli

And it is.

Clara

Just when I wanted more devices.

Delia Cai

Yeah, what if I consume this as two objects.

Clara

The more items, the better.

Eli

Okay, hottest take that you've got.

Delia Cai

Okay, this is sort of related, but I. Just telling something that. I was like, I think when you're starting to date someone, don't follow them on social media. You shouldn't follow each other. I don't know if that's a hot take, though, but they were like, that's like, as we thought about it. And they were like, well, wouldn't you want to see what they're doing? And I was like, No, every post is an invitation to fight. And maybe that's the hot take. I know maybe that's like, every time they post a story, you're going to be like, Why are they texting me back and you just don't want that? Yeah? Like they were working an 18 hour shift, you just don't want that much more info.

Eli

I also this was more of a cold take, but again, I was looking through your Twitter feed. I agree that the ice cream sandwich has the, you know, prime, the greatest. Not feel that there is, but I don't think that too many people can bite into an ice cream sandwich. I mean, oh, I can, but sensitive teeth. Not too many people can do it. Sorry.

Delia Cai

It's a good test. So I got, I never thought about that. I guess it's a little ablest of me. That's what people on Twitter would say.

Eli

That was not a that was, I was not fishing for that take.

Clara

Using our new video coverage to show how we bite ice cream sandwiches.

Eli

Or Klondike, but that Klondike doesn't the Klondike kind of cracks. Okay. Anyway, sorry, all right. Last one, Internet Crimes that you would like to prosecute, or gripes that you have?

Delia Cai

I just think any people, anyone who's like, actually, okay, so I do think there is good AI art, like my friend, she makes like, she like, she like, literally, her name is xi. She makes actually interesting art with AI where she's making these kind of, like cinematic stills, almost that, like, very like old world, like Hong Kong film. And I was like, I totally believe that you're going to make a movie one day doing this. And looks amazing. I think her Instagram is like, it's like, she's stuff, xi, stuff. I'll look it up. But barring that, I think most the way people talk about AI, like, drumming up a movie for you, like, at will when you come home, or, like, you know, just like making art, like just replacing art with AI art. I'm just, like, anyone who is excited about that, like, should go to jail, because it's this idea of, like, I was talking about this with my friend Kyle, where he was sort of like, you know, there's this real divide between people who think art is just kind of like my personal wallpaper. It's sort of like, like, the way music has kind of moved to where it's like, I just need something to listen to that makes me happy, versus like, Oh, I'm interested in this artistic message that somebody has made and is putting out in the world. And I want to engage with this person that way. And I just think that, like, there's this, like, the way tech dudes talk about AI being able to make movies and to make art, it's just like, Do you know what this is for? Really? Do you know what art is for? It's not to just like, hang on your walls, you know? It's not to just like, you want to just come home and watch a movie that stars you and like Scarlett Johansson, like, that's not what art is about.

Clara

Starring me again, and the hottest girl you've ever seen in your life. It's my favorite movie.

Delia Cai

Yeah, and they think that, like, this is gonna be good, this is gonna be, you know, it's gonna be some new renaissance. And it's like, oh, I don't think, I think you missed the whole point, you know, yeah.

Clara

And like, what have you been watching? Like, yeah, God. The mind wanders.

Delia Cai

I know, right? It's like my man coming to the metrograph with me. I'm about to blow your mind.

Clara

There's some crazy stuff people have been making yeah this whole time.Well, you've been in your VR headset doing God knows.

Eli

All right. So to close it out, where can our listeners hear more from you? Find your newsletter,

Delia Cai

DeezLinks.com, for everything.

Eli

Alright Delia thank you so much. Appreciate it.