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Link in Bio’s Rachel Karten on Why Great Content Flops

Eli

Oh, we're good. Summer's coming to a close. Got that crisp, that crisp fall feelings almost kind of in the air. No we're rolling. You guys know what I mean, though?

Trey

I know, because we always open with weather. In fact, we have a cold front happening in New York right now.

Clara

Quick day one intervention. No one knows what the weather is, except us and, well, maybe some other people. But...

Eli

Anyway, I like opening it with the weather. I know it's kind of the lowest form of conversation,

Trey

But the winds are changing.

Clara

It makes us seem like we're not getting to be any closer. Over at this point, like two years in.

Eli

What was your name again? Claire?

Clara

Desperately searching for something to relate to.

Eli

Oh Lord, all right. Well anyway, today on the pod we have Rachel Karten. She's a social media consultant. She also, you might know her from a newsletter that she writes called Link in Bio, also home to one of the more creative URLs, milkkarton.net, is where you can find subscribe, etc. I've been reading her newsletter for quite some time. I think we all, I suppose, have?

Trey

Oh, you're an expert?

Eli

All right, okay, that coffee is kicking in. By the way, it's 5:06pm.

Trey

I've been a huge fan for a long time.

Eli

Name one article. Name one article, yeah.

Trey

No. But she also was the Associate Director of Social at Bon Appetit for a while, where she, you know, drove Bon Appetit socials to various awards and accolades, which is really cool. So I think that her, you know, take on social media and brands that are doing well on social media is specifically enlightening.

Eli

Yeah, she's delivering some great content and information to a crew of marketers and non-marketers, who you could say, are hungry for insight. So really taking that bonabat thread.

Trey

I have a hot take, though, which is, like I and I've been thinking about this a lot, because I get deeper and deeper. If there were an iceberg of, like, social media marketing, I'm kind of just below the surface at this point, I would say, but we have never before in our lives have had this much access to this much data at once, like, you know, that thing where it's like one Google search is the entire life of a peasant or something.

Eli

In what time period, or, you're just sayin?

Trey

I mean, anyone like, you know, like, you learn more from one Google Search than like a peasant would have in their lives.

Eli

Like, the whole thing that like the page of like the book of history is on, like has only happened on one page, you know, like modern civilization.

Trey

My point being, though, like you can look at your Tiktok analytics, or your Instagram analytics, or whatever, pick whatever social media platform you want to and try and create content based on what has performed well in the past, or you can, you know, like we discussed later on the episode, you can go into the kind of marketing side of like social media where people are trying to tell you how To hook someone in with, like, just the right question that you pay off. And then there's like, specific structures you can use. But I think what she does well, and what hopefully we kind of get to the bottom of a bit here, is like, there is no perfect way to, kind of like, game the algorithm or create content in a way that's just going to work. Like she was saying, sometimes you create something awesome and it just flops, and that's crappy. But like another thing that she said, that I thought was quite interesting, that we've heard also from previous guest, Adam Faze, is like tried and true formats, specifically kind of television shows, or, you know, like Room Raiders, or specifically in cooking, a lot of things that I don't know, I can't name a cooking show, but there's a lot you can think of.

Eli

Grocery games, right? Iron Chef, diners dives?

Trey

Yeah. Kind of repeating those formats or bringing them back. It's already familiar to people, and therefore they want to engage with it and share it more. I would love to see, like the social version of Extreme Makeover Home Edition, which I still think about.

Eli

I recently got into, what's the what's the show about...

Clara

House Hunters.

Eli

House Hunters. You ever watch House Hunters?

Trey

Oh yeah, yeah. And okay, can I, can I, like, spoil it for you?

Eli

But no, I mean, well, what sort of spoilers a plot?

Trey

No, because apparently, they've already purchased a house before even going on the show.

Eli

Whatever. I would prefer the veneer of artificial that's like no Santa themselves. At that age is marginal.

Trey

So they've already chosen one, and then they just show them two other ones, and they pick the one they've already bought.

Eli

Well that ruined my weekend.

Trey

I think it's no but my favorite though, is when they go to Europe, every American, like from Michigan or whatever, goes to Europe, and they're like, he wants to be close to the city, but she will only lock 15 steps out of the door.

Clara

I know their budget is $800,000

Eli

I need the bidet. I need the bidet. All right. Anyway, we're straying a bit too far. Let's bring Rachel on. All right, cool Rachel. Welcome to the pod. Thanks for joining via zoom.

Rachel Karten

Thank you for having me.

Trey

All the way from Culver City.

Eli

I know it's rare that we have a bicoastal pod. We've been lucky enough to get people shockingly into the door, but thanks for doing so virtually. Are you a regular podcaster with the with the mic, or just kind of intermittently, just in case?

Rachel Karten

My husband, like, really wanted me to start a podcast, so he bought me a mic, and now it's come in very handy when I, you know, go on podcast, but still no link in bio podcast.

Trey

It's like that ad where the husband buys the wife, like a peloton from, I think it got pulled from the air.

Rachel Karten

Yeah.

Eli

Is that the one with Mr. Big? He died in the show?

Rachel Karten

That was different, different.

Eli

All right. Well, anyway, we'll be keeping an eye out for when the pod comes through, but just to quickly jump in so you have a newsletter. But the newsletter, which we'll talk about, is your side gig, main gig like what? Give us a give our audience a little bit of background as to who you are and what type of consulting that you do?

Rachel Karten

Yeah, I am a social media consultant, so I work with brands on their social strategies. I led social at Bon Appetit for four years before that, and left in 2020 and just have been working with brands like West Elm, Vava, just a few give.

Eli

Give us, like, a bit of background—did the social consulting come from? The newsletter? Is a newsletter kind of like a way to flex that muscle and stay sharp.

Rachel Karten

Both. So I feel like I think the newsletter has been a secret, amazing tool of getting consulting work. But it's not why I started it, by any means, but I would say that I like left Bon Appetit without sort of a job lined up. And so I needed to consult to make money. And then I also had this idea for the newsletter. And so both sort of started around the same time, but the newsletter is certainly a great way to let people know how I think about social and a lot of brands, then find me through that.

Trey

What I love about your newsletter is you explore social and kind of trends that are happening on social in a way that like has both the consumer point of view as well as like an expert point of view. Because I feel like there's a kind of huge gap, almost a Venn diagram that doesn't even touch almost like one thing that you spoke about previously was how you know, if you ask a normal person on the street like, what are you seeing in your feed, they won't mention the thing that is in like, a really super long LinkedIn post where people are like, oh, did you see this huge campaign that literally nobody saw. So I love how you kind of parse that, and I'm curious how you approach like, what you cover in your newsletter and how you kind of find these trends that you want to dissect.

Rachel Karten

I found that, like a lot of social media or just marketing newsletters or resources reported more on news and sort of like, here are the updates for Instagram this week. And what I really wanted was like, Well, what are the updates that I should care about, or, like, what, you know, I don't care that Instagram is releasing this new thing. I want to know what, like this person thinks I should care about. So that's sort of where it started from. And then I think that, yeah, I just found a lot of resources also where, like, really, like, SEO heavy would, like, pander a little bit to marketers. And so I hear all the time that people who subscribe, they're like, I don't work in social media. I don't work in marketing at all, but I love reading a newsletter, just because, like, we all live on social media, we're all marketed to all the time by brands, and so people want to know some of the like behind the scenes work that goes into that.

Eli

Yeah, we don't need another Adam-versary to let us know why Instagram is prioritizing saves and shares, a beacon of conection.

Rachel Karten

Yeah, thank you, sir.

Trey

Like those bifocal like...

Oh my god, those baby blues, staring into my soul.

Trey

Yeah, like him constantly explaining that, like, Instagram is about the social part of social media, and that they prioritize shares because, like, I'm just, like, the things that I share are garbage. I will, you know, admit.

Clara

I know, staring out with those puppy dog eyes, like I just kicked him by deleting my Instagram.

Trey

Well, yeah, I'm curious. Like, to what extent do you explore people's behaviors on social in like, in terms of shares or sends or whatever. Like the mechanics are...

Rachel Karten

In terms of like in the newsletter, what like do I like think about, like, the social psychology behind some of that stuff?

Trey

Yeah, like, I'm wondering, like, what if that crosses your mind? You know, like, when you think of things that are doing well online, like, whether it's a demure, mindful or whatever, are you thinking about? Like, this is actually scratching an itch of, like, people's inner psychology, or is it just like, I don't know, garbage.

Rachel Karten

Both. I mean, I think about, you know, I saw that video from like, Adam, like, what was it like last week about the shares versus saves? Like, that's something that anyone who's worked in social media has known for, like, years. That's like, of course, you want people to share your content, so it's like, I rarely find those updates very helpful, and I do, but I do think it is interesting. When you work with brands, you want to create something that people want to share. What makes somebody want to share? You know, using simple, like, language tweaks. Like, I was looking at Kamala HQ, and it was like, on Tiktok, they like, really, like, try and optimize for shares. You can tell it's like, you have to watch this video. It's their own caption saying you have to watch this video. I mean, no shit. You posted it yourself, but they like, use this language that like makes you want to share, makes you want to like, do something about it. Almost feels like it's a news organization sharing it. It's not like we posted this new video or we made this video. It's like you have to watch this. And so I think there's like, little things that brands can do to make people want to share it, or like, have people see themselves in the content more than other types of formats.

Eli

I wanted to ask, speaking of the coconut hive, have you been keeping up I guess this week or last week, when this will come out with the DNC? I know there's a big emphasis on like creators on the ground, and obviously Kamala HQ and their kind of whole social presence has gotten a lot of press. Do you think that's warranted? Like, what's your kind of take on it? Obviously, there's a lot of, like, reinvigorated excitement around it, but do you think it's, like, genuinely good or just that, like, they now it's more believable that someone young is making the content than, like, dark Brandon memes?

Rachel Karten

Yeah, I feel like that's what I think about a lot of you know, when you think about a brand voice that, like, voice needs to match the brand, it's like, weird when Walmart says Rizz, like, I don't believe it. And so, you know, I think that when we saw Biden on the stage at the debate, all of a sudden that, like, it all kind of dropped right, like, it's like, I don't believe that he would know any of these memes, any of these references that his social is saying, and it's the same exact team that was running that account as running these accounts, but now the voice feels a little bit more believable. I could see, you know, Kamala looking at memes. I could see it feels a little bit more like reality. And I think it's working.

Trey

And I think the one thing that it's like, it's lasted this long without being, I guess, quote, unquote tainted, because Kamala herself has not acknowledged the kind of jokes, or the coconut hive or whatever like, I think we're kind of veering into those waters the you know, not to get, like, all into politics here, but the more that she leans into, say, like a camo hat merch or whatever That looks like the Chappel Roan merch, or she puts the comal HQ and the brat Charlie XCX font on her Twitter banner, or whatever. So how much I guess, do you believe that like things are only good if you let the fans, like cook for lack of better term, and don't really acknowledge it, but give them like the playground to play in?

Rachel Karten

Yeah. I mean, I think something that I've noticed is that those accounts feel a lot more like fan accounts than they do like a politician's account. And so it feels like Gen Z's fan account to Kamala, even though the call's coming from inside the house, it's their account. And so I think that's been a really, really smart strategy to distance her from it. And there's like little winks where sometimes it's acknowledged, but it's never like, you know, she's doing the apple dance or anything.

Trey

Yeah, thank God.

Clara

I mean, I guess sort of related in the sense of Kamala and the coconut and the von dutch remixes. I know it's a little bit late to talk about brat explicitly, maybe, but I think...

Trey

It's brat autumn, apparently.

Clara

Brat autumn, new remixes incoming. But I think I was curious about your take on it, sort of relating to the piece that you wrote about the marketing group think problem. And I think especially sort of like what can sometimes happen with marketing in terms of like, something like brat happens, and it's like, we have to immediately read the tea leaves, or, like, what brands can learn from Charlie XCX. And I think in the same way that, you know, sometimes brands are accused of, like, sucking the life out of something online or in the comments or on socials, kind of the same can be true. I think of some of the analysis that tends to happen after the fact. Or, like, we could even look at maybe some of the more like viral ads of last year, like the Michael Cera, CeraVe ad, which also sort of be got a lot of, I don't know, hot takes and things, but I'm curious what you make of that in both like, how to glean maybe some key learnings from some. Thing without, like, beating it completely into the ground, and like, depriving it of joy, you know, and like, over explaining the joke, because I think that your newsletter also sort of strikes that balance well. So yeah, just sort of an open question, I guess.

Rachel Karten

I mean, I think a lot of what marketers talk about are those, like, one off things that, like hit and it's, like, amazing, but that's just simply not replicable for the majority of brands on social. And so for me, it's always about like, showing that there are other ways to show up online that don't require you to copy what another brand has done. You know, I think that, like Zaria, what she's done at Duolingo, is amazing. I think she's really smart, but like, it's not something that every brand can do themselves. And so I'm, I guess I'm less interested in, like, breaking down a Duolingo post, and more interested in figuring out what kind of culture allows Duolingo to post like that, and it's a culture of trust and risk taking and like, that's more interesting for me to write about so somebody can I hear all the time? Like, I forwarded this to my manager, like, I want more cultures like that, and that can lead to just better social overall. You know, I wrote an article that was, like, your approval process is killing your social strategy. Like that is more interesting to me than, like, breaking down again. Why like, the CeraVe thing worked? Because it's such a specific story that, like, what can anyone learn from that, not really much. In my opinion.

Eli

I'm also seeing like, huge LinkedIn threads about brat from like John and whatever, you know, finance department at whatever marketing agency. And I just like, we don't need this. But it's also like, no one, no one in real life, is talking about this like that at all. And it's also like, I don't think that people really talk about liquid death, like marketers talk about liquid death. I think there was an eye roll on the camera, but like a welcomed eye roll on Zoom. But I completely agree. And speaking of kind of like templatized creative, you also wrote recently about like, when to tap into a trend. And I think this also speaks to more of like the tone of voice thing that we were talking about with Kamala. HQ, you mentioned we're in the the midst of demure fall or demureder on the dancefloor.

Rachel Karten

I haven't heard that.

Eli

No I just made that up. Talk about cultural spaces we want to play in, but how, when does this end? Like, when are we in your mind, like, what's on your radar in terms of like, when our brand's gonna stop thinking that the key to success is like, product plus funny meme or trend? Because I think the like never, never? Please, please, tell us.

Rachel Karten

Tomorrow. I mean, I honestly, like, this is my like, you know I was gonna say, like, just hit a joint thought. I don't know if I can say that on this podcast, but, like, my bigger thought is, like, algorithms have ruined brand social, it's really hard to break through. And like, when we feel the high of a viral video, when we, like, follow a trend, and that's like, you know, following a trend or a format, like, puts your post in this, like, fast lane on the algorithm. And like, I can't knock a brand that does that, because I get it. It's really hard to to break through. But like, with my newsletter, I try and show that there are ways to break through on social. And I think about like the internet as a language, and there are more ways to like speak the language of the internet than just through trends. And it can be a video format, it can be a way of storytelling, or whatever you know of type of VO like. There's ways to speak the internet that don't require you to like, participate. In trends. And so an exercise that I like to have my clients do, and I talk about in the newsletters, like, imagine you were planning, like, a month of social content you like, couldn't participate in any trends. You couldn't use any trending audio. Like, what would you do? What series would you create? What do you end up watching? And like, that's where I'm curious. I know you had, like, Adam Faze on this podcast. Like, I think he is really inspiring in that way, of like, what if your brand created a show? What would that be that like, didn't require you to participate in the demure trend.

Eli

Yeah? I know. And by the way, you can say whatever you want. We spent $44 billion on the podcast so we could just, you know, skew whatever.

Clara

I guess. Like, going back though to the piece yesterday, I thought one thing you did call out in terms of how brands can slash should participate in trends, is by being either, like, truly additive to them, or like adding a different punchline or adding a different sort of flavor to them. And I think that that goes back kind of to what you were just saying, and also earlier, about like this, like tonality and like sense of taste and understanding of your own sort of point of view, and that just speaking internet language is not a substitute maybe, for having that own sense of like, the sense of self, which is weird to say, of a brand. But I do think like maybe that is like a distinguishing factor to some extent, in terms of like, also why it is. So hard for, say, a brand to replicate, like, the brat thing, or on a more sort of, like commercial level, to do a lingo, but if you have sort of in the same vein, like tips and tricks for brands in terms of, like, pressure testing, like, what's the right tone, or, like, what's the right humor for us, versus just getting totally caught up in what's trending.

Rachel Karten

Yeah, I mean, I think, like, how does your brand show up on the internet? I think is an important exercise to do, and I still think, and I don't know if a lot of brands still do it, but like, I still think, like, you know, creating a document that really kind of establishes who you are on social still important. And I don't, don't see it as much as I feel like I used to, and I think that's okay, but I've always like, liked doing some of those, like, horny exercises. Of like, What celebrity do we sound like? Like, what like person, like, personality do we have? Like, I think it is helpful to do that, and then it can always like, stretch from there. But I think it's still good to to run your brand through some of those exercises.

Trey

So you don't think the playbook is dead, the social playbook.

Rachel Karten

I, like literally just published an interview that said that, but I didn't say it.

Trey

Well, one thing too I wanted to talk to you about, because you brought it up, kind of, is you're interested in the approvals process of like, that's kind of where the social ideas die. And one thing that I think is kind of quickly changing there is, like creators being embedded at the brands, or, you know, being able to be that close to the brands to create content so that it's kind of being created in lockstep with them as well. And like here at day one, we just launched our Creator Studio. Shout out to Creator Studio, but basically, like, we have these kind of creators that are on staff whose job it is to kind of like create content that we are concepting in a deck that we're maybe selling to a brand or something like that. So there's like, one fewer step to kind of getting that, like approved and live when you know the feed is moving so quickly. I wonder if you see that as kind of like a blueprint for, like, the future of how marketing kind of comes to life.

Rachel Karten

Yeah. I mean, I think that creators being in house at agencies is especially for, you know, Tiktok is extremely important. My like issue always is like, oftentimes it's the social manager who ends up just being that person on camera, and they weren't hired to necessarily be like talent, and then you have, like, a face of a brand, and that gets kind of tricky quickly. So I think for you, just like, shove your social manager in front of the camera. Like, having a plan for something like that is, is always good.

Eli

Yeah, you never really want last case, last case resort on cam, you know, yeah, oh, sorry. It has to be you. It's got to be you. No one else.

Trey

Like great idea. Go film it.

Rachel Karten

And I've seen like, you know, social managers who end up being like, the face of brands, and they try and go somewhere else, and it's like, wait, you were the person who were, like, on the nugs account, or whatever it was. And it's like they become, like, really known as that person, and then the new person who comes in, they're like, all in the comments, like, what the hell happened to and it's like, you gotta just, like, plan for that kind of stuff. I would say.

Eli

What the fuck happened to them?

Rachel Karten

No, but actually.

Trey

But it is weird to you know, in this age of social media and creating parasocial relationships with these brands that we follow, and then, like, the person who is thirsty tweeting for like, Mr. Peanut or paper magazine goes, and you're like, wait, who are you now? Like, what is your identity. I'm confused. If you're not confused, like, I'm confused.

Rachel Karten

Yup and I know, like, the planet money, like Jack Corbett, fans of his as well. And it's just a funny sort of dynamic. I would say.

Eli

Yeah, I feel like you gotta, like, if you're gonna do that, you really have to lean in and like, that's gonna be your thing, versus, like, a wonderful, oh, turns out you actually really good at this, sorry, kid.

Clara

I do think, though it is, and maybe this is like a vast exaggeration of what you're saying. But like to take, for example, Jack from Planet Money, like he does become so associated with it, it's almost like an eye, like he's like a, whatever you would call it, like a Mr. Rogers of that thing, like, once you which, and, I mean, maybe it's like a plus and minus potentially for a creator in terms of working with a brand, but especially if you're, like, talking about people who are still, like, pretty young, or it's like their first time being on camera, and maybe not in the Jack example, but like your first time being on camera, and this is no shade whatsoever. Is like the being a spokes face for like, Velveeta cheese, maybe you want to go do something. Do you know what I mean? Like, is there a sort of, or have you noticed this at all? Like, a weird, well now you're like, boxed in, or is that something that you hear people concerned about at all?

Rachel Karten

I like, maybe wrongly, but like, compared to like, Flo from progressive, like, she can't go anywhere else unless someone else takes her, and she has a crazy contract that she gets paid so much money and so to some degree, like social managers or like faces of accounts should have some sort of protection, whether it's like a talent agreement or something that's in place that protects them because they are so associated with it. And the views of those are honestly probably like on par with what progressive views are, right? Like, it's like people are viewing these. Tiktoks millions of times. So I think it'll be a problem down the line.

Eli

It is crazy. How much of like, what stage of capitalism are we at that Jake from State Farm is like sitting courtside and flow from progressive is like, gonna be nominated for an Emmy or whatever. I'm making this up. But it's crazy that, like these, you know, behemoth insurance companies have turned into pseudo entertainment conglomerates at the same time.

Rachel Karten

I know it's the Jake from State Farm thing. I'm, like, so fascinated by, like, not even his real name.

Eli

I mean, I'm a sucker for the, like, the All State.

Clara

I like mayhem.

Eli

Yeah, mayhem.

Trey

Who's mayhem.

Clara

Mayhem like me. It's the guy on his eye, and he's like, I'm a crooked windshield wiper doing like the worm on the windshield of a car.

Eli

I think the the point about like influencer, or like, quote, unquote creator protection is interesting. And I feel like I've been reading more so about kind of like child like protections placed off on like child influencers. Because a lot of times, like, their parents are like, this is your job. This is your job now, like you are helping to funnel money into our family. And I've been thinking about it a lot because my feed has been commandeered by big justice and the rizzler in that family.

Rachel Karten

I'm so sorry.

Eli

I know, I know. I'm not there. I mean, I don't even know how to describe it, but you remember the cut? We're Costco guys.

Trey

No, I know what I'm just saying. If I were listening.

Eli

Oh, for the listeners. It's not actually a family. It's a crew of families. But it started out as this guy, who's like, really juiced up, like, Floridian Italian and his kid, and they did the like curse trend, of like, we're blah blah blah. Of course we do blah blah blah. And it was like, we're Costco guys. Of course we eat double chunk chocolate chip cookies or whatever. And that was memed. And then there has been characters added to this cinematic universe, of, like the rizzler, who, I think, is like this seven year old, like chubby kid who does this, like weird face thing. But they have, like a little series of, like episodic vignettes, but they...

Trey

You're in deep.

Eli

But, yeah, do you think we're on the verge of more of, like a labor movement, I guess, to put it every more serious.

Trey

Every question, when will this end?

Eli

No, but you seem with like the bravo bravo like reality stars, I think it's only a matter of time.

Rachel Karten

I think that like brands will need to start putting in like, talent contracts for people that you know appear on their Tiktok more than x times. I think it's a little bit like Wild Wild West, you know, a lot of like best practices are like, go around the office and like, film with coworkers like they didn't ask to be in Tiktok like they didn't ask to so I think it'll need to be an employee contracts and like, talent contracts.

Eli

Yeah. HR, listening, trembling.

Trey

Another when will this end question? And I'm asking this in a completely I could word it very differently than this, but a lot of brands comment on other brands Tiktoks and posts, and then those brands reply to the brands. So it's like a gladiator arena of brands battling it out in the Tiktok comments. And you have to like, kind of scroll sometimes to see a real human.

Clara

And Paul Mezcal isn't even there.

Trey

What are your thoughts there? Is that a good engagement strategy? Or are we like, are we moving past that?

Rachel Karten

Personally, I hate it. Professionally, it's like, I try and not knock anything I saw, like a tweet the other day about like art or like movies, and it was like, there are no like, good and bad movies. It was just like successful and not successful movies. And sometimes I feel that way about social where it's like, I don't know if it works. Like, how could I say, like, don't do it. But what I really don't like with some of those is like, you know, sometimes it's like, a brand that posts like, I'm just like, the silly social manager, like, how would I end up here working for this brand? And then, like, all the comments are from other brands, being like, is this play about me? Like, Oh my god, so me, and I'm, like, put some respect on your name. Like, it's not funny to like, be like, I'm just a little old social manager. Like, it's weird. I don't like that. I don't like that.

Trey

It's so crazy, though, because we talk a lot about, like, repeatable formats and things that brands can do to kind of like, stand out. But yet, the like culture moves so quickly that there becomes these sort of micro formats that people repeat over and over again, like the one you just mentioned, or I've seen a lot of the ones that are like, "help, my manager handed me the account and like, I have to make it blow up." And it's like a cat dancing on a car wash or something. And it's like, goes viral constantly. But are these sort of micro trends, or how would you describe that kind of behavior?

Rachel Karten

I mean, I'd say it's a trend and then it's playing like, directly into the trend, instead of, like, you know, something I talk about in the newsletter a lot, is like, I don't mind a trend, but like, twist it or like, subvert it in some way. And so I would love, you know, I think there's like, funny, like, breaking of the fourth wall, or like, ways that you can, like, take a format that's repeatable and that lots of brands have done, but, like, twist it in an unexpected way. And like, that is where is more ownable. It's more funny. And I'll remember that more than I'll remember the, you know, the 50 other brands that just used the same sound like as is.

Trey

Well, what do you make of the brand ownable conversation? I know that was something that I put over an email. But like, you know, there's a lot of brands that I mean, the constant feedback is like, how do we make this more ownable? Sometimes it seems impossible.

Rachel Karten

An example that I've written about is like, Away the suitcase company. Like, I think that what happens usually is there's a slack and it's like, here this trend is happening, or this event is happening. And so like the Met Gala, for example, it's like this moment on social. Every brand feels like they want to participate. If you don't push yourself, you're gonna, you know, do the beam over a celebrity, which, like, legally is already like, an issue, but that's what most brands do. They're like, you know, when you wake up at 7am and like, whatever, like, it's like a meme with the celebrity, but like, away, you know, their slack, I think, like, went a level deeper, of like, the Met gals happening, like, what's our way in? And like, asking, what's our way in? I think is helpful. And instead of doing that, they like, showed what the suitcases looked like for the celebrities who were going home that night, and one of them was filled with sand, because one of the dresses was like, me. Dresses was, like, made out of sand and like, that's a really clever way in for them to participate in this moment where like, more eyeballs are on social which, like, I can't knock a brand for wanting to try and participate in a moment where, like, they might get more eyeballs, but like, always asking that level deeper of like, well, what's our way into this? As opposed to just, like, oh, let's just, you know, do the thing that everyone else does. Yeah and I think if you think about, like, what sticks with you, what you remember, it's like, yes, there might be this viral post that like, blows up because it's a trend. But like, what always sort of, like sticks for me is those, like, original shows or original twists on formats that, you know, stay with me. That's why, like, I could recall that was a way that did that Met Gala post. I can tell you the 40 brands that did the meme.

Eli

I was just gonna say I really liked, I mean, I think it also ties back to what you're saying earlier, which I really liked is, like, forcing your forcing yourself or your team, to, like, plan out a calendar, like blank space, like, if we have nothing there, say trends didn't exist. And, like, there was no, like, blank girl fall or demure summer, or whatever, you just had to, you know, think about what could we do? I feel like it forces people, or quote, unquote creatives, to, like, actually think a bit harder about creative and like, how the brand might actually show up in culture versus like. I feel like trends sometimes offer, like, an easy way out. And I think that the tide is turning on that, you know. And it's more easily, like, spottable, I guess, or exposed.

Trey

That's interesting, because in my feed currently, I am like in the zone where I've liked or shared a couple of these posts, mostly for inspiration, I guess. But like, they're sort of mid to higher tier, like beauty or fashion brands, usually from like Australia, because I never know what the act like, the name of the brand is never recognizable to me, but all of them are doing this very ASMR coded thing where it's like, like, they squish the pump of the gel and like, it goes, like, and like, spread it on someone's hand. Or they're like, making some garment, and it's all very, you know, behind the scenes, how to kind of what we're seeing, or I'm hearing a lot of in terms of, like, marketing, speak of content that's sticking out right now, where it's like, show the behind the scenes, show the owner, show like, how it's made, blah, blah, blah. But it seems like that kind of paired with the sort of ASMR audio. I mean, it is mesmerizing. I'm really kind of caught whenever I see one of those. But I'm just wondering if that's like something that you've seen, I guess.

Rachel Karten

Something that, like an interviewee said to me the other day, was like, and I wrote about it was your ordinary is your audience is extraordinary. And I think that's like something that has really stuck with me. Of just like, you know, a museum showing how they like earthquake, prove something it's like such a that's what they do. But like, if you can tell it in an engaging, interesting way, I think that people will find that fascinating. An idea that I have for somebody to do right now is how those glass teleprompters work, because I don't have any idea, and I would love to watch video explaining how those work, and somebody should do it, because I don't know.

Eli

They're angled at such an impractical way to read it.

Rachel Karten

Like, how are they reading that?

Eli

I was watching yesterday, though, and it seemed like they had a huge one.

Rachel Karten

Yeah, they've also got the glass ones that I do need to know. I even YouTubed it the other day, and there wasn't a good video, so there's a real white space there. If anyone listening wants to make that video.

Trey

Please create this content.

Eli

We usually put teleprompters behind our guests, behind the laptop, right there.

Trey

Well, how do you decide what goes in your newsletter? like what is like, Okay, this is a topic that I know will, either, you know, engage my fans, subscribers. Or you're just interested in them.

Rachel Karten

It's sort of just, like, using my own gut of, like, what do I find interesting? Sometimes I'll like, you know, send myself down paths that I wouldn't normally go down. Like, I have to, like, actively look up, like Xbox or some of these, like gaming companies that I wouldn't come across their content, you know, if I didn't look and there's usually, like, really good ideas in there, and like, not just ideas for other gaming companies, but like, ideas for like a beauty company or a restaurant. And so I like to, like, send myself down like crazy wormholes, but it's really just like a gut feeling of like, oh, I think that's interesting. I haven't seen that before. Like, something that I don't like to look at, like LinkedIn and like, see what everyone else is talking about, because I don't feel like that will like that will, like, help me write anything interesting.

Trey

Do you ever kind of fall into, like, the marketing side of Tiktok or Instagram, where people talk about, like, you have to get them with a hook in the first one second, and then you have to, like, pay it off. Then you leave them with a what if, or whatever their like structure is. I see a lot of those.

Rachel Karten

And I see like, a lot of, like, if you want to make money, you should work in social management. I'm like, what, where are you working? Where are you getting that idea? I think they're just making money from telling people to, you know, work in social media and, like, grift that way. But yes, I do get those.

Trey

I only ask because, like, I feel there's, like, again, this sort of dichotomy of people who are telling you exactly how to perform on social and like, this kind of consultancy vein, and that's completely divorced of just like someone being like, Would I like this? Would I do this? Would I share this piece of content? And instead of having this weird formula of like, you have to hook then you do this, then it pays off. Here, I feel like a lot of things succeed because it got through that approval process you're talking about in a way where it was, like, everyone was just like, dang, I still want to do this, or I still want to share this, after all these rounds of feedback and whatever.

Rachel Karten

Yes, but it is hard sometimes when you, like, put something up and I'm sure, like, everyone has done this, that you think is like, killer, and then it just falls flat. And like, even with LinkedIn, I found myself when I first started posting on there, like, all my posts would tank and like, slowly. Like, I feel like, you know, the meme of the like, clown makeup being put on. Like, that's how I feel when I post on LinkedIn now, because I'm like, fuck like, when I do, like, separate the paragraphs out and like, start with an interesting first sentence, like, it does better. And like, you do want your posts to be seen. And and it's like, we live in this like, algorithm now, where it's not just, like, if they follow you, they'll see it like no one fucking sees it, or a lot of people see it. And there's no middle ground like there used to be. And so, like, at some point you do need to play the game, but I think there's ways to play the game that are interesting and unique, and you don't need to follow, like, you know, social media bro bible.

Trey

Well, because I I'm curious about your, you know, previous experience at Bon Appetit, and I think that people now that we are all sort of our own publications, in a sense, you do kind of go through, like, baptism by fire, where you realize, like, Upworthy worked and Buzzfeed worked because they started to, like, figure out if they could gamify their headlines or their quizzes or whatever to get people to click like people are learning that for themselves and their own content. And I'm curious if that like rings true for you at all.

Rachel Karten

I mean, something that I think about a lot is like familiarity. And so familiarity is something also that works in the algorithm. And like, when you think about the show like it's alive, like it took a lot of notes from like, the office. And if you look at like, there's this show on Tiktok right now, of like, Mohawk Chevrolet in like, upstate New York, that, like, is basically making the office for their like, car dealership. And like, it works because it's a familiar format. And it's not familiar in the sense that it's like a Buzzfeed tasty video, which also is a familiar format. It's like, familiar in the sense that like, Oh, I see that this is like the office, and now I want to keep watching. And so again, like there are ways to reference old shows, like the show boy room is like room raiders, and it's familiar in that way, and it takes notes from a show that worked in the past. And so I'm more interested in taking a you know, inspiration from shows and TV shows that worked in the past than necessarily, like short form Facebook videos that worked in the past.

Trey

Another thing I've been seeing a lot too. I wanted to get your take on, and then we'll we'll move on. But because your scroll is so quick, and you see like things for maybe one second, two seconds before you keep moving, I was reading about like we are in this sort of vibe cycle, like things are no longer about storytelling. Now we are brand mosaics, and you're just getting like a vibe for every two seconds. So it's like, yeah, this is what this person was saying. And I was just curious, like, is that also something that you've come across, or am I just, like, drinking the marketing Kool Aid?

Rachel Karten

I've seen some of like, the arguments against the word storytelling. Like, it's just a word to describe things I don't know. Like, brand mosaic, that sounds like storytelling to me too. Like, I don't I think that we're in like this, like, over labeling. Like, thing you can like. Say that, like, it's not all about storytelling. Fuck the word storytelling, but it's like, your posts need to evoke a reaction. How you want to do that is up to you, I think, is sort of the like. It can be like some like CGI thing that's, like, really satisfying. It could be the like lotion ASMR. It could be, you know, two minute explainer of how you like earthquakes prove something in a museum, but like makes you feel something, and like that should just ultimately be what it comes down to.

Trey

I want to feel something.

Eli

Trey quietly deleting storyteller from his instagram bio.

Rachel Karten

With a rocket ship next to it.

Eli

Yeah. The chart this takes us to our final segment of the pod, a series of one offs we can start with the bright side before we get to internet gripes. What is a like offline slash offline-ssh recommendation that you have that could be a book, a museum, a nice beach or national park to walk through.

Rachel Karten

Have you seen the show chimp crazy yet?

Trey

I've heard of this.

Rachel Karten

It's from the Tiger King director, and there's only one episode, so tune in, and it's about, I don't want to ruin any of it, but it's like a chimp prison, basically, in the US, and like, there's a rescue, and it's intense, but one chimp is missing from the rescue, I guess is what I would say.

Eli

Wow, is he cute?

Rachel Karten

And they're cute chimps, but it's a sad story.

Eli

All right, I guess this ties nicely into the next one, which is social niche or account that we should tap into.

Rachel Karten

Yeah. That is a perfect tie in the Utah Department of Transportation is really great. They are documenting, it's called Bridge Fest, all of the repairs that they're doing on bridges. And the editing is really, really fun. They did one on, like, potholes, and you like, get to know all these characters, and they're just doing a really good job of telling stories around bridges.

Eli

That's pretty sick. Sorry, sweetie, it's infrastructure week I can't join. What's your what's your screen time? Like, we've gotten a range of answers for a couple episodes that we've done this. I'm curious.

Rachel Karten

I think my phone is like six hours.

Eli

That's pretty that seems pretty normal. Yeah, all right, internet gripe or crime that you'd like to prosecute in this court of law.

Rachel Karten

You know, this isn't a big deal, but I really don't like when people put, like, use the song feature on like a still image on Instagram. I think it's weird.

Trey

Oh it boosts engagement though.

Rachel Karten

It doesn't. I think it actually ruins engagement, is my take on that. And I think that it's weird to, like, press play on like, you know, a Chappel Roan song to your like, photo dump from the weekend. It's like, we didn't need that to be sung over.

Eli

Is it maybe just because the songs that you've seen, you're like, fuck this song, or just like, it's annoying because it's weird.

Rachel Karten

It's weird. I think it's weird. Sorry.

Eli

All right, no, hey, you don't have to apologize to me. All right. Last one, leave us off with your hottest take.

Rachel Karten

My hottest take is that I feel like, once a year we like, get this, like, call to action that we want to bring the chronological feedback to Instagram, and I think that everyone would hate the chronological feed. If it was brought back, it is back. You can toggle over to it. Nobody does that. I think you'd be bored. I think that the algorithm, we're addicted to it, it makes it more interesting, and you're asking for it and you don't want.

Trey

It's here and you still don't want it.

Rachel Karten

Yeah, you could toggle over any day, and you don't.

Trey

That's crazy.

Eli

I've never, I know we have the choice too, but I've never, neither have I pulled trig on that agency to do that. All right, so Rachel, where can our listeners find your newsletter, or, you know your best practices LinkedIn posts as well, or whatever, whatever social page you want to plug.

Rachel Karten

My newsletter is @milkkarten.net, and my social handles are @milkkarten.

Eli

Cool. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Rachel Karten

Thank you guys.

Trey

Thank you.