Eli

All right today on the pod are joined by Matt Klein. He is a cultural theorist writer, he writes a substack called Zine that I'm a huge fan of I know a lot of folks at the agency are as well. He also recently came out with a actual zine called Audience Capture, which you can find snippets of on his substack. But yeah, it was a really fascinating conversation, especially he's been doing a lot of writing around trend reporting, trend forecast and kind of some of the issues, inherent issues that we're seeing there. So we dive into all of that, and a lot more throughout the conversation.

Trey

Yeah, I think as we wind down 2023, it's really interesting to kind of hear from somebody who's been so involved in trend forecasting, and kind of distills a lot of what we've been saying, you know, this year about trends and what we're seeing in culture, to some really interesting, sharp, fine points. So that's exciting.

Clara

Yes. And I also think that he does a good job of seeing, I don't know, not sort of in a superficial way, the optimistic side, but I think that he did have some things to say that made me feel maybe slightly better than I did before about going into 2024. So learned a lot. I thought it was a great conversation.

Eli

Yeah, it was educational, entertaining, engaging, a little existential, you got the four E's.

Clara

You know, maybe five central to the mission of Day One FM.

Eli

Those are our four tenants.

Clara

Exactly. Those are our values in our narrative arc.

Eli

All right, let's tap in. Matt Klein, welcome to the pod.

Matt Klein

Thank you so much for having me.

Eli

Yeah, we're really stoked to have you on as well, I want to just jump right in. I feel like the timing is perfect, because we're about to, we're entering trend reporting season trend forecasting season, and we're about to be inundated with all of it. I just saw a Google Drive filled with like 40 different trend reports. And full transparency, we're working on one ourselves, but one drum that you've been banging on for the past year or so. And I think we've spoken about it on the side. It's a fact that kind of trends are trending. And we're in a crisis of trend forecasting and trend spotting. And our job I think almost everyone in this room is to kind of understand what's going on in the world understand what's going on in culture. But I'm increasingly feeling like I'm being lobotomized every time I try and do that, or I read a Trend Report, etc. And you write I think this is from a year ago, we've come to conflate trending with trends in the process of chasing cool, most discussed trends are really just frivolous entertainment, we've lost the plot. So we're two years in to or a year in following this, quote, etc. How did we get here? Like what's going on?

Matt Klein

That is the question. Yeah, that's the question. I think two things. One more, I guess, philosophical or abstract, which is I think trends are providing us this sense of comfort, right in a moment where it feels as if we're stuck in time. And that's a topic in itself. Trends provide the sense of progress, forward momentum movement that just makes us feel good as if things are progressing forward. I think simultaneously at a moment where it feels as if so much is out of control trends to provide this explanation or answer as if here's the thing that is happening, we've figured it out, we've cracked it. Here's the the sexy title and the description. Here's what's happening. And I think, from that philosophical point trends are providing us some sort of comfort, soothing, peace of mind. I think, on the other hand, from our business perspective, in a moment that is so out of control, it would make sense for organizations to paint themselves as right the the Oracle, as if, you know, we've got to figure it out. We've got our pulse. We know what's happening. I think what's concerning though, is that, I mean, what other profession would people have be so comfortable doing the job with no experience, no training, just nothing to backup, what they're saying. I mean, what I found in this analysis this past year was that less than 50% of trend reports, listen to methodology, right? They're just throwing things against the wall, and then move on those who have the methodology that's its own its own thing. So I think on one hand, it's providing this like cultural assurance, and momentum and peace of mind explanation, then think the other hand is this desperation for organizations to position themselves as if we've got it figured out better than anyone else has figured out. Well, no one really has it figured out

Trey

By methodology, because I'm kind of curious, having worked previously in media and magazines and stuff, and a lot of times we would create an article about something we saw. And then I imagine and I do see this happening. These articles are used as like, the fuel for these trend reports where there's like this weird loop where it's like, are we just saying the article is the truth and that is the thing that is like backing up our trend forecasting.

Matt Klein

Exactly right. I mean, what we're talking about is the Ouroboros, the snake eating its own tail, it is very easy to seed something. And then that just becomes the thing. And we've seen that in the last couple of years with, I mean, it's a Rorschach test, pick your hyped technology or movement, you see the thing. And also, there's your proof of that it's a very real thing. And culture, I think what's most concerning for me is that I'm studying these trend reports to create the meta analysis of you know, what's rising to the surface, what are the trending trends, and as I read them, I'm quoted as support for that trend, or something else that have spoken about, and it's truly the snake eating its own tail. And I think there's a really interesting implication here, which is, right, if we acknowledged the flaws, in trend reports, and cultural forecasting, and their lack of methodology, or bias agendas, whatever it may be, there really is an opportunity for preferred futures, which is like you can hack trend reports, for better or worse, to claim that XYZ is now a thing. And now you're upstream. It's so much innovation and change in creativity and campaigns, etc. that now you're just making the thing happen. Things really easy to dunk on advertising, marketing, branding PR as like a, you know, it's not rocket science, are we No, no and saving lives, but in all fairness, it sets an agenda and in a tone for what is upstream of a lot of culture, especially from such important brands. And I think with that comes this responsibility, or at least mindfulness, if you're going to approach this just recognize that like, hey, people are gonna read this and make decisions off of it.

Trey

That's kind of scary. I mean, we do that.

Eli

I mean, so slight, slight deviation, but like, how, how do we like study or think about these, because you talked about, it's very easy to dunk on marketing agencies, etc. I work at one sometimes do it myself, but like, without... How do we study or think about these trends? Like the jazz revival or slow vacation without fully dismissing them? Like, is it still important to? Or do we need to care about errand core? Or like the Lulu or the Roman Empire? Like what is you know what I mean? Because like, those are, what is what is illustrated as trending and like, clients, like, how are we tapping into this? And, you know, how do you not say, No, this isn't quite a thing, or like, what can you glean from that as something that might be valuable? Or is there kind of like, no, nothing there,

I think we're have landed is this idea of, and I'm not making this up, it's it's paste layering, or sheer layering right there. Within a system, there are different layers of things within culture, that move at different paces, not everything moves at the same pace, or has the same importance or weight and acknowledging that, you know, pick anything that you've said, that doesn't necessarily mean that has the same weight as any other cultural trend and acknowledging that maybe we don't give that as much importance or energy or investment as something else. And I just put out this this quiz, which was, as I say, these reports, can we take trends from 2018? And put them next to those that were reported in 2024? And can people tell the difference of when these things were reported? Sure enough, you can't. So we have a better chance of guessing 50/50 than anyone actually trying to figure out when these things have been published. And I think with that, right back to that earlier comment, it's easy to dunk on organizations for just repeating themselves with regurgitating the past. I think that's a really easy reflexive response. But I think there's something deeper, which is, if you look at what's been posted in 2018, they're all pretty legitimate, like nothing is really off. And I think it's naive for us to think that all of these trends have a 365 day shelf life, that it takes time for things suggested, again, pick jazz revival, like, I don't know if that's real or not, right, there's a difference between a search term and like a real social shift that you could triangulate different data points to backup that jazz is a thing beyond just stone searching the word jazz. But the point being that, that's not to say that's unimportant, but maybe we just acknowledge that that's a part of a larger system of so many other signals, and we just don't treat them equally. This

Clara Malley

is more of like an observation, maybe than a question. I'm curious what your take on it is just as far as like search terms is and we joke about it, but there's just so little like methodology to like how insights or whatever you want to call it is labeled and what an insight is, like, for some people an insight is like something that somebody searched in Spotify, like a critical number of times, like tomato girl playlist. And then for other people, it's like, oh, I read seven articles, and they all mentioned XYZ, and then that's an insight. But like, I wonder how much or like, I don't know, like how you encounter that. And then also like, what the solution for that is because like that also feels kind of embedded maybe in some way with like, you know, the meta trend conversation.

I think the remedy at least in the short term for within, in an organization is at least sharing a taxonomy like how are we just commonly defining x, y and z? See, that's likely going to differ organization to organization. But for as long as a team itself is on the same page, I think that's just, you know, the starting point. Like that's table stakes. I think that's my, my hat answer as regards to everyone else getting on the same page. That's above my paygrade.

Clara Malley

I mean, like, it's, it is funny because it has become kind of a parody of itself. But like, there was a recent Wall Street Journal headline, it was like career advice. It was like do Dululu is the Solulu? Like how Gen Z is taking dululu is the solulu as like their new like career credo? And it's like, number one who's doing this? Number two, like, why does this bear and maybe it does bear reporting, but like, I don't know, just like the crossover and kind of in these strange, ironic ways between like legacy institutions and tick tock trends that are being like, totally maladapted into being like, this is how Gen Z is interacting in the workplace.

Matt Klein

My personal remedy to that has been just skepticism. There really is something to that. I think when I started out in my career, I mean, both internally and an organization or whatever read like, I've always considered that fact that that's the thing. That's the law. That's the Bible. That is the the proclamation of everyone is doing this thing. I think the longer I've worked in advertising and marketing, the longer I've worked in media itself, right, that's not the case. You could see it anything talk about propaganda. I mean, that's really what this is, this is. So I think media literacy, or just skepticism, and more than anything, holding something at a distance. Like, don't just be in the thing, hold it at arm's length, and like, question it, interrogate it. And we don't have to, again, go total conspiracy theorists, but like, maybe we take a beat, like maybe really talk about that article and understand why may they be seeing this, what other data points can we use to back up this thing? And then go from there, and maybe it is real, or maybe we do activate upon it and put it in our important folder. But that distance, and that questioning is time intensive and it takes effort, and it's annoying and boring sometimes. But I mean, that's that's the work that's required.

Eli

Yeah, I feel like the tricky thing is like interrogation and skepticism, like at something you can look at, in an instant be like, I don't know, but interrogation takes some time. But I feel like we're the ad cycle, like the marketing cycle moves so quickly. So there's like, absolutely no time to do that. So it's like a struggle to kind of square having some healthy dose of skepticism, with the rate at which brands want to move and activate on something.

Matt Klein

That's the ultimate tension. Yeah, like that is the ultimate tension.

Clara Malley

And I think also building off is that you also have, as a marketer, as a brand, it's like, you kind of want to put your hand on the scales, I think oftentimes, when you are either deliberately seeking out insights or, you know, even just reading for your own enjoyment, as you know, some of us. But yeah, like you're kind of reading it with, like, the explicit goal of finding the insight that backs up, whatever it is you want to do. And I feel like that's also kind of, to the point about, like, you know, the dragon eating its own tail, it's like, you're not necessarily even reading it, you know, through the lens of like, I'm trying to have, you know, the most intellectually honest relationship with what's being reported to me. It's like, I'm trying to gather what is ever like, the most useful glimmer within this article? And then extrapolate that into a brand campaign?

Matt Klein

Exactly. Right. Yeah. That's the difference between inductive and deductive reasoning, like, do you have an existing hypothesis? And then you're just going out to support the thing that you already believe it? Yeah. Are you open to what rises to the surface, and then going from there, and more than anything, I think maybe that's commentary on just our...

Trey

But I think it's interesting, again, kind of bringing it back to how media literacy is deteriorating, or has deteriorated over the past several years. But I and I hope this is obvious, but I'm sure in the same way that marketing and advertising move at the speed of light, so too, does media who have oftentimes, quotas of articles they have to write per day of news things they have to write in per day, I was just talking to a friend who works at a media outlet that we've all read. And she was telling me that like, she has to write, I think it's like six news articles per day. And when there are not, you know, news, things going on, you kind of have to reach for those insights to kind of spin something up. And there's probably not a whole lot of reflection or editing that goes into that being posted. And then our kind of consumer culture reads it, digests it internalizes it, and it feeds into this kind of aura. I don't even know how to say that word ouroboros, you know, so it's like these, you know, everyone is on this kind of timeline and has to kind of do this work, but they're to kind of put it on the consumer to have that reflection or media illiteracy moment is almost irresponsible, because, you know if media has to produce this stuff, and then it works itself into marketing and advertising and the consumer is kind of left holding the bag, like, I better figure out if this is true or not, or like if this is actually happening or trending. That's, that's terrifying.

Matt Klein

It's It's spot on. I mean, we're an industry of propagandists who don't understand how propaganda even works, and that we're victims to the thing in itself. I think there's two things there. I mean, it's funny, you had mentioned the article thing. I mean, before I started zine, my newsletter, I was a contract writer for Forbes, and they would only pay you if you hit five articles in a month. And you're just now writing things for the sake of writing things and like talking about just seeding nonsense. I think the other thing, Clara to go back to your point on, you know, things move so fast, and you're chasing it. I think an idea that I had come to is this idea of, you know, cultural analysis or foresight as activism, which is buck the status quo, or zag or break out of that ouroboros. Market research can only take you so far, right? You're now just studying the past, there was an opportunity to just now make the thing just like stop studying it. Totally zag just do the thing. I mean, Rory Sutherland says, right, it's a great quote, you can post rationalize so many great ideas, so many more than you can pre rationalized, which is another words to say, you can create so many better things without the research and then reverse engineer why that was a good idea, then trying to do all the market research in the world and trend chasing and cultural analysis to then create the thing. So how do we build that confidence to, you know, break out of that cycle, just make the thing, use the gut, use our existing intelligence, and then go from there. I mean, the obsession with the trends of the market research to me more than anything is a signal of a lack of confidence. Yeah, creativity.

Clara Malley

No, I totally agree. And I feel like we talked about it, too, is just like, when you look over the landscape of, you know, recent brand activations, or even like, if you're running down like a list of like, the top five that broke through with Gen Z this year, it's like so many of them as someone who is, you know, almost Gen Z, it's like, I've never seen any of these, like, I never saw this, it didn't break through to me, maybe it broke through to someone. But like, the sort of staleness of the current landscape is maybe perhaps an indication of that if like, everything is just acceptable enough, but it doesn't really have the creative integrity, or like, honestly, the novelty, maybe to be like truly new or to make a splash or a memory that sticks in your brain for longer than five seconds seeing in an Instagram ad, you know.

Trey

But to kind of counter to kind of counter that point a little bit. I think, I think like the brand campaigns, you can argue whether they broke through or not, but the brand campaigns that really did kind of resonate, or that we talked about, I think and I don't know, for a fact, but I think most often they were things that were planned a year prior with no real tie to what's currently trending or happening in culture. And it was just a long lead production time for a cool idea that was pulled off well, and it does well, it just like works, because it was a good idea to start with. And to your point, I think you can really easily post rationalized something like that. Versus like, trying to make an idea come out of the ether based on the trends you've cobbled together that are happening now and pull it off quickly.

Matt Klein

I mean, the mind blowing fit to that is like, everything is the past, right? Everything trending is just old anyway, because it's taken years for that thing to come to fruition.

Trey

Yeah.

Eli

All right, let's pivot the conversation slightly. I want to talk at least briefly about Audience Capture, we're looking at a huge stack on the desk right now. Thank you for bringing those. This is a zine that you recently wrote, can you describe define Audience Capture and like what prompted you to write it?

Matt Klein

I think I sit at a really interesting intersection studying the internet, and in our digital platforms, and our features and our apps, and so on, who creates on the internet myself. And I've noticed this phenomenon kind of creep over the last handful of years, which is really more than anything, a power shift, or shift in dynamics. Traditionally, we've always viewed the artist, the creator, the maker as the one in control. That's the person in power. And we hear that within our language. Did the painting move you to the song make you feel a certain way? Did the speech change your thinking? The art, the thing, the work or the creator does the action they are the one in charge. And what I'm finding is that there's a reversal or a shift in that power, where now the audience has more control power and influence over the Creator. And we see that within outrage. We see that within algorithms right making for the algorithm, you know, tiny Link songs for SEO are speeding things up. So it could fit within a timeframe online. We are asking your audiences what we want to see we are performing for metrics, so on and so forth. And that Powershift to me, is problematic for two reasons. Firstly, psychologically, I mean, that burden of performing for an audience is getting way too intense for for our own good, you know, any data point could back that up? Super concerning. And then secondly, I'm concerned creatively as well. I mean, we are now making for an audience since what has the audience known better than what an artist or creator wants to create themselves? So those two reasons to me are incredibly problematic. And it's something that I've noticed but not seeing enough about, right, like, we hear it, we're like, yeah, that that kind of makes sense. But what are those solutions for us to overcome that, that threat and in our sanity, and our creativity are both at risk in my eyes,

Trey

It's kind of you know, when I think of TikTok creators mostly, and it's funny, because a lot of them rise to fame for doing one specific thing. And then there obviously comes a point in their career when they want to evolve and try something else. But the audience is like, dance monkey dance, you know, almost quite literally. And if they're like, Oh, I'm not into that anymore. The fans completely turn on them. I that's happened with like, Emma Chamberlin, who kind of stopped doing her like, Day in the Life vlog type things. You know, I've seen it a lot where like, creators are kind of stagnant at a certain point, because they just cannot keep up in doing the same things over and over again. But yet, we have more Gen Z years than ever, who wants you have this kind of career? So it's a real mind...

Matt Klein

It's funny, because Emma, I have quoted Emma in the zine itself, I think there's another driver at play here. Besides the technology that's influencing all of this, I think it would behoove us to also acknowledge our economic environment. I mean, you could have been an artist decades ago and live in the city and survive, right? Literally, like the starving artists stereotype. You can't be a starving artist in New York City or any city today. So there is no a financial implication or incentive to do the thing. And now we see capitalism break into artistic works, and I don't think those two things can really go together.

Trey

Do you have an example of that?

Matt Klein

Yeah so there's the the poster child, for better or worse of this movement has been a YouTuber. And this YouTuber was a vlogger. They were a violinist, and they just wanted to be a YouTuber making music. And they weren't getting eyeballs, they were just not getting any attention whatsoever. And they pivoted and they decided to eat for the camera. Mukbang. And, sure enough, an audience showed up. And the audience showed up, I didn't showed up. And he became conditioned of oh, this is what the audience wants to see that audience. Right, this D individualization the they're becoming the mob or a single entity, start pushing it, eat more of this, eat all that, see if you could finish all of this. Fast forward a couple of years, this YouTuber has become morbidly obese, on an air tank. And he has finally reached his metrics of success of these YouTube, these YouTube subscription numbers and these views, but at what cost completely has given up both his obviously not just mental health, physical health as well, for for what is he any happier reaching these metrics of what we've always considered to be success? And how do we again maintain that that backbone that sanity, and also our creativity? Are they that that integrity.

Eli

Literally on the other end of the spectrum of the starving artist.

Matt Klein

I think what's what's interesting too, is that like, this doesn't just apply to artists that this applies to studios and to legitimate, I should say, legitimate, but more established or traditional entities as well. I mean, the case in point that I bring up is Sonic right, the Sonic the Hedgehog movie, they released the trailer, and it was like, what the f**k is wrong with his eyes, like redesigned the film? And then the studio's like, okay. And they just redesigned the reanimated the entire film, because the audience is like, No, I mean, for better or worse. I mean, you could pick and choose, but there are plenty of examples. I mean, look no farther than cable news as well, that that is at the beck and call it what an audience wants to hear at the threat of our own democracy. So this example of audience capture that the point I want to make these beyond YouTubers or artists or everyday people, but applies to our institutions as well.

Eli

One thing that interests me is kind of like the platform hacking in the platform optimization of it all by creating for the platform, and then what you get is a bunch of content, a bunch of brand campaigns that kind of look and feel all the same. And that's not to say I think you should like comepletely like violate platform best practices? I think if you're on TikTok, you need a hook or on YouTube, you know, you kind of need the same thing, something that's exciting, interesting, etc. But what's your take on that? Because I feel like there's a bunch of, you know, beautiful work. Tyler, The Creator just launched an entire Lookbook on Instagram, and the kind of he flouted all the best practices, right? It's a horizontal video, it's five minutes long, like, Is there room for kind of more breakthrough creative work that operates outside of these best practices you think on the platform? Or are the cards stacked so much against these kind of novel creative forms? Again, this isn't to say like, you should just put a commercial on TikTok, because that's straight up not gonna work. But like, Is there room for, you know, different types of creativity on those plates?

Matt Klein

It's both. I think both, both things are true. Like, I think the worst part about this phenomenon is that I mean, we almost have lost power to some extent that if you want to create, you have to abide by these laws, and the laws that are constantly changing, and that you don't even know, like, it's pay to play by pay. It's literally like, pay your integrity or your creativity in order to participate. At the same time, I truly believe there is a desperation and need and whitespace for people to buck the status quo. And to tie these two conversations back to the trend reports as well, like, there is an opportunity to break out of that oroboros. And then when individuals or studios, I think of A24, buck that status quo is received with such enthusiasm and acceptance, because it's so refreshing and no one else is doing that. And I think the point I would make there is that a feedback is not a binary. It's not a yes or no, you don't have to bend entirely to an audience. But you also don't have to ignore them and do the opposite of what they say. And we think we're naive to think it's one or the other, like feedback is a spectrum. Choose your own adventure.

Eli

Yeah. Talk about the decline of the starving artists. I feel like you also talk about kind of the decline of institutions meet media art. One institutional decline that you've touched on is education, specifically higher education and a very long in depth piece about this. Clara and I were part of a seminar that you helped lead with Marshall McLuhan's grandson this summer, and I'm curious, what, why did you decide to touch on this topic? Why is it important to you? Why do you think it's important for brands and marketers as well?

Matt Klein

I really, really value education, I went to a small liberal arts school, I attribute my writing my career, my outlook of the world to that experience in a very small, intimate learning environment. I value it so much that outside of work and writing and speaking etc, I want to participate in academia as much as possible. If I had a hall pass, I'd go get a higher degree. In the meantime, something that's more feasible is guest lecturing. And I had an opportunity to guest lecturer at a program and signed up, went through all the contracts and whatever, as a visiting professor for for marketing. And literally weeks before the program was going to start, the offer was rescinded because they learned that I myself didn't have a Master's, this program wasn't even masters, it was a professional development, extracurricular, whatever. And as someone who values education, that to me was a glaring point of something is way off. And I mean, this week case in point there's, there's a lot wrong with with institutions gonna have to tread there. But that in combination with pandemic induced learning, loss, and just job preparedness, there is something stinky within within that space. And I wanted to write about it. And I wanted to speak about perhaps other solutions or remedies that can fill the gap of alternative education, and appointment wanted to make while writing this entire piece is that it's very easy as cultural thinkers, critics, to comment on culture, and then just let it be, I think what we desperately desperately require are remedies or solutions or at home tools and an action to fill the gaps or to do something about it. It's really easy to dunk on anything in culture. It's also pretty easy just to spin up a seminar and and that's what I wanted to do. So I got in touch with with Andrew McLuhan. We had bumped into each other at a workshop. And I had asked him like, Would you ever do like a book club? Like, would you ever do like a code reading session where we read understanding media, or seminal texts in media theory? And can we talk about it? Like, hey, grab two or three people you think, and I put out a request and zine and the number of hands that were raised was absolutely shocking, but at the same time, not surprising as well, right? There's a desperation for not just upskilling but community and ritual and enrichment. And this past summer, we had 30 People from around the world come together every Friday morning at Nine o'clock. And for the first half an hour, we would do a reading analysis. We'd critique, read read, we hear from Andrew of how this text from decades ago relates to our moment. And then we would open it up for an hour conversation and just riff essentially. And I think what made that experience so special was two things. First, I mean, it was incredibly intimate. But I think it was intimate because I really prioritized diversity and diversity in a very, like, you know, check a box diversity, that how do we ensure that every single person is coming to the table with a unique lived experience? Beyond age, beyond gender beyond race, beyond profession? I mean, I didn't even ask where people worked within the the the application itself, how do we ensure that those who show up are coming with a, an experience a perspective that differs radically. And the second thing that I really wanted to make clear before this thing started was, this is not a conference, we are not on stage. This is a classroom, act like a kid, ask dumb questions. We're here to learn. We're not here to posture or to lecture, we're here to co learn with one another. I think those two elements really created. I mean, you tell me I think really created this really special cohort, where I don't know there were there was certainly a hole in my heart after it had ended after two months. And I think it speaks to a lot in culture beyond the community beyond higher education beyond just better have it and Richmond's I mean, it was a really interesting, I think, coalescing things within the zeitgeist. But again, what I really wanted to do with it beyond just selfishly, you know, read the book, but just prove it's really easy to just do things yourself, bottoms up, crashers I had no particular skill, or resources, the thing was free. I mean, I it took nothing to stand the thing up, it took a Google meet and a calendar invite in a survey to stand the thing up. So as we critique culture and comment on it, how do we also offer solutions or remedies or bridges for the things that we're dismissing or critiquing or dunking on as well?

Trey

Yeah, it's interesting to to think about when you remove the reward system of social media, that people maybe come to the table and are genuinely just like, oh, I want to share my opinion without like, I think that that's important to point to make that like everyone can really do anything themselves, especially since we've exposed a lot of the industry. You know, all of this is like, you know, a snake eating its own tail. But yeah, that's really interesting. I'm curious, like, what themes came out of it that surprised you? Like, did people say anything that you were like, This is genuinely such a, you know, hot take that I've never even thought of myself? Because of this, like, diverse audience? Or?

Matt Klein

I don't think it was anything explicit. But let me What stood out for me. I mean, there's certainly very interesting, explicit things that came out. But what really resonated with me was this idea of going back to first principles, right? I mean, the common denominator of people who study culture or media, I mean, that was the thing that that tied us together, there was something incredibly refreshing about going back to basics. Were in the trenches, day to day, we're making the things we're writing the things, we're researching the things, the big, can we approach these topics for a very academic, theoretical, philosophical point of view, to ground us to anchor us to really just refresh us with like, this is what we're doing? And can we understand our day to day in a more just anchored approach, and I think that was incredibly refreshing. I think, the one thing that stood out to me or the piece of feedback has been like, wow, like, hadn't considered that. Just, um, in the day to day, I have not considered that there's something larger, there's a larger system, there is theory behind the things I do every day.

Trey

I'm gonna raise my hand and say, I have not read understanding media. But one thing that I, you know, constantly bring up in my master's program, where we're forced to read the cabbages subculture, which I just think is like, you know, one of if not the seminal texts on like subcultures, and it always feels like, especially in this this line of work, that the themes and the things that came out of that book are just like constantly referenced in different ways by a lot of trend reports and stuff and I'm like, You're dancing around this like main topic that was fully explored by people in the 70s and published and like, I'm not blaming anyone for not knowing of these, like, I didn't know that book existed, for example, but I'm like, Are we is the system so broken that we don't even know where to look to find these things? And we think we're coming up with these like, new thoughts and all that, you know, I just, that kind of also trickles down into like the Oh, I just discovered this new artists like Kurt Cobain or whatever. And it's like.. I was

Clara

I was gonna say which is more just like a funny anecdote, but I will into like a marketing agency holiday party last night. And it was interesting. So I was like talking to different people. And nobody that I spoke to, and I don't know about anybody here, like, went to college and studied marketing. You know what I mean? Like, went to college, like studied liberal arts realize that working in a magazine is not. It doesn't pay, like went into marketing or like, you know, went to school for film, like is doing film is also working in marketing. But like, it isn't, at least for me something that like, by and large. Anecdotally, I think a lot of people have like a deep base of knowledge and before working in in the same way that you do in other professions. And I think like, you were kind of speaking to this earlier, like, I think insights in particular, but also marketing in general, is something that just generally on your job application just doesn't tend to require a lot of like, pre education, or, I mean, really, right.

Trey

Oh, yeah. No, I think that's I think that's a net positive. Yeah.

Clara Malley

And I think it is a net positive in the end. But I think that when you don't have like, you were saying a foundation of knowledge, and you don't have experiences or like, you know, there's not like a seminal text that everybody's read in the same way that there is like, I don't know, the DSM five, or whatever it is, you know, like, go ahead. Oh, no, I just I don't know if I'm explaining this super well. But you know what I mean, that like there isn't that sort of, like foundational plane that we're all operating on? We're all operating on different ones. And that comes with positive and negatives, I guess, consequences. You know?

Matt Klein

I agree. I want to pick up something you had said, which is, it's something I've experienced, which is like the deeper you go into history, or these older, these, these older texts, there are less new ideas than you actually think like it's been spoken about, but you're not reinventing the wheel. And I think that's both incredibly refreshing. There's a relief to that. It's like, Hey, we've we've been discussing this, but at the same time, incredibly concerning, which is like, Oh, wait, I'm rediscovering the thing that these people from 70 years ago have already been discussing. I think there's another signal in that which is, right, you look at like, you look at Future Shock. Right. By Alvin Toffler, what I think is interesting, though, right? It's like, you read that. And he's warning and waxing poetic about, I mean, our minds can't keep up to the pace of technological change and information. This is 80 years ago. And there's something incredibly refreshing, which is, oh, we've been here before, like, this is not a new human condition or experience, but at the same time, pretty concerning, which is like, Oh, wait, we've been here before, and we haven't figured it out. And it seems to be getting worse.

Eli

Yeah, that's what that is. My question doesn't seem to be getting, you know what I mean? I mean, none of us were alive when that book was written.

Trey

We're a bit dooms day on this podcast is like one of those subjects here, that we often talk about is like, in kind of breaking down these ideas and new themes and trend reports and stuff. The kind of bottom line for a lot of them, at least our takeaway is like, things are getting worse, like, culture is dying media is dismantling media literacy is at the bottom, like, no one is going to college. And, yeah, you know, we joke about it a lot. And it's like, it can be really fun fodder. But at the end of the day, you know, are we headed for total destruction?

Matt Klein

Oh, I hope that's not a direct question. I mean, I I flip flop, I really flip flop. I mean, that's probably the one thing I'm thinking the most about recently with the last couple of years, which is like, are we experiencing something net new? I think that's been my proxy, or I'm like my threshold, my checkbox, which is like, bringing the thing we're talking about the thing? Have you been here before? Is this net new? More often than not? I think we can point to something that that rhymes or is a similar flavor of where we've been historically. That I certainly agree we are embarking on parts of of the world and culture or shifts, whatever you want to call it. That argue we have we are never been here. We are not equipped to deal with that certain elements. I don't think it's all or nothing. But I do think that's, that's the question.

Eli

Speaking of new, very much pivoting the conversation, I want to talk a little bit about Ozempic, which we've discussed, like a little bit here and there. And it is in the headlines, not just as a pharmaceutical fee, but also as a cultural phenomenon. Is this something that you've been tracking recently or thinking about at all?

Matt Klein

Yeah. I think my take on Ozempic is this idea that it is, to me less about the weight loss or the physical side effects, but rather the social or the cultural side effects the second and third order knock on effects? I mean, there's been plenty of headlines in the presses love this. I mean, United Airlines is super excited because what happens with the average flyer loses 10 pounds and we save X million Non fuel every single year. Great, great, great. Meanwhile, there's Mania with fast food or snack brands or like, Oh, no short, short, short, like we're, we're not gonna be relevant. The, the signal within that, for me is whether or not Ozempic itself is a thing or whether or not the side effects are so intense that, you know, this, this doesn't get traction. How are we dealing with the cultural side effects, or the hype or the mania around things related to longevity? Our lights are stretching, like just scientifically, like there will be more advancements, whether it's exempted or not. There will be drugs that make us live longer, and it will be technology that makes us live longer. How do we reckon and manage the consequences of those cultural side effects? That, to me is endlessly fascinating. And how do we do so in a way that is mindful and responsible rather than going crazy? And you know, Nabisco or whatever. bread making protein fueled Oreos, because people are going to, you know, burn too much muscle mass. Yeah. So, to me, it's this idea of, I mean, for Ozempic, it's almost a head fake, which is like, there will be more longevity drugs in the years ahead. How do we approach those with a rational and level headed perspective?

Trey

Yeah, that's a really interesting thing. In my kind of outsider take, I often talk about how I'm like, not from America, I'm from Canada. But I, the thing that I find so fascinating about the whole Ozempic conversation is to me, I'm pretty sure and again, I can't back this up right now. But like, America is one of the only places where you can advertise, like prescription drugs. And yeah, you know, with insane side effects that like might include death, or whatever. So I just think it's really interesting that it seems like Ozempic, to me, at least is the first drug, like prescription drug that has entered the culture, like cultural conversation in such a massive way that there's like, kind of zero shame around the, you know, discussion of it. Whereas in other countries, and I, you know, I don't, I live in America, so I can't speak for everyone else. But I think it would be such a different conversation, you know, so it's so strange that it's, like, infiltrated the cultural consciousness in the US. And it's like, because it is advertised here, because it is, like, turned into memes and stuff, it's completely fine to talk about something that's like, really a personal health issue for you know, most people. So I just find that so interesting.

Clara

I'm curious, just to the point about cultural stuff, and like the cultural implications of Ozempic like, like, there have been, like birth control, I don't know, in the 60s, like the invention of a birth control pill, like set off, or in many ways, like, expedited, whatever, like, the sexual revolution, this, you know, Summer of Love, but then also, you know, like feminism, the idea that like women could, you know, go to work not have kids if they didn't want to, like, I like, do you see Ozempic as like a drug on that scale with like that potential to have like an I mean, not saying it will kick off anything like along those lines, but like, in that conversation, or do you see Ozempic as having maybe like, more insidious or like, maybe less immediately visible effect?

Matt Klein

I don't know if I could pinpoint one side or the other for Ozempic. I don't know if I'll put money on that. But I think what makes Ozempic different is this idea of biomedical zation. It's this idea that we are increasingly becoming doctors ourselves. Right? We have the death of the expert, we see a commercial and now we are so in charge of our health that we are now prescribing ourselves things that to me feels very different, insidious or healthy or empowering like that. That's, I think, pretty subjective, that that to me feels quite different that there's this empowerment that we are now in charge of our own health, but it's not just health in regards to curing illness. It's held in regards to optimization and perfection and I think that's where things get interesting and different.

Eli

Yeah, and a little scary, but it's perfect timing because I was reading this morning and my morning Axios am but number seven on the docket was AI enables DIY doctoring, and there's this very cute little pod in a mall and I'll read read the explanation but now coming to a mall, gym or office building near you a self contained doctor's office, powered by artificial intelligence what could go wrong? Were you the patient, draw your own blood and take your own pressure. The DIY health clinic in a box called the care pod can conduct a biometric body scan, have your DNA sequence and test for hypertension, kidney disease and heart issues. Any alarm bells ringing yet?

Trey

I think this is something that like many people would use or waiting for like your flight or something.

Eli

I was gonna say is it just those like salad vending machines at JFK or like the, the therapy pods that they have up? Go in those you know what I mean?

Trey

Yeah, if you if you have it, they will go.

Eli

I don't think so. But yeah, to your point, I think the will a the optimization is super interesting. And it's something that we've been tracking this year you have like, on the kind of the weird Silicon Valley and you have the Huberman guys and Peter Thiel, although there's an interesting piece in The Atlantic where he he doesn't have like any paperwork signed, where he claimed that once the second he dies, there's going to be like a Go Team in to resuscitate his body and put it in like, a pool of not ammonia, but some like weird liquid, and then he'll be revived and whatever, 100,000 years. But then you have Yeah, I guess, just like the mainstreaming of once fringe optimization techniques is super interesting to think about for sure.

There's certainly a parallel I mean, I mean, really, to pivot, there's such a parallel of longevity and optimization in regards to health, and workplace productivity and optimization as well, I think of the people obsessing over their notion templates and their helmet or timers. And I think there's something in regards to optimization, which is incredibly anti human. It's to reject or dismiss the ways they're rather the way things naturally are. And, to me, there's a push to that poll, or that zig zag, which is, how do we just embrace how things already are and stopped optimizing for optimization sake? And just I don't know, except our bass, and I think there's something to be said in regards to health and obesity. That's a that's a separate conversation. But at what point are we over optimizing, where we are losing what we already have in the first place. And I think a case in point of like, notion templates, like the time in which you can be spending, while you're so busy with your notion templates, you could just be doing the work itself. And there's this reversal of the figure on the ground that I think relates to longevity as well. You're so busy. I mean, you look at all these guys who are obsessed about de aging, like spending so much time trying to de age yourself with no promise when you could just be living, right? Like, what are you trading this in for? Like, what do you ultimately going to do when you live longer besides just keep drawing your blood? That's not fun.

Eli

To look like my 18 year old son.

Matt Klein

Then what?

Trey

But I can the one thing that I think we've kind of been circling around a bit in the things you've been saying, it sounds like there's a little bit of nostalgia for the past. But now, you could also say like, currently trending, IRL, watch grass hot girl walk like slating apps that are getting people to meet in person. It's like, kind of strange that I know we are continuimg to label things and trying to make sense of things. But it sounds like maybe something you've seen is that we should go back to basics to put it basically.

Matt Klein

I don't, it's it's half there and maybe we workshop this in real time. It's half there. My fear about nostalgia mania is that we're just regurgitating the past without adding anything to it. I mean, we could draw upon the past for as long as we iterate and remix and play with it. I think maybe what this really is, is you know, first principles of like, maybe things aren't as broken as we think they are. It's funny, I a LinkedIn post came across my my feed this theory, Derek Thompson, has been going on about this for a while, that everything is crap, but I'm fine phenomenon, that we think that the world is worse off than it actually is. We think that people are unhappier than they actually are. Or we think that the economy is worse off. And our own finances are actually more in order that we're so easy to diagnose and to judge. And it's not necessarily going back to basics, but recognizing and embracing that. Like maybe things aren't as crazy as they they are. And I think that's a pretty wild thing to say out of context. And that goes back to our Doomer ism conversation. That when we acknowledge those data points, and we acknowledge that maybe we've been here before, it's not about going back to that past but maybe kind of just taking a beat and be like Ha like maybe we check ourselves because it's easy to get wrapped up in that hype that sensationalism that outrage that Doom or ism maybe we have or have not been here before, but we've certainly come a long way. And we've lasted this long and how do we hold that hope into into the future.

Eli

Good way. I think it was good way to stop there before we end real quick Matt where can people find you on your work?

Matt Klein

Absolutely.

Eli

Super fascinating stuff.

Matt Klein

I'm Klein Klein Klein everywhere online. Klein Klein Klein yeah and Zine.KleinKleinKlein is my publication and KleinKleinKlein.com is homebase.

Eli

Sweet, thank you so much.

Trey

Say it three times fast.

Matt Klein

Thank you, it means a lot.

Eli

Thank you. Yo, thanks for tuning in. Stay up to date with all things Day One FM by subscribing to our page on Spotify, following us on Instagram @d1a and staying up to date with the latest trends and insights on d1a.com/perspective.