Eli

We're good? All right, we're back on the pod. I hope you guys liked that new intro that played right before this right Jacques? Getting a nod. Anyway, right Clara? How are you guys doing good? Clara is on her second spritzer. Yeah.

Clara

Feeling refreshed thanks to hashtag sponsor.

Trey

Double spritzing.

Clara

Spindrift.

Eli

What flavor?

Clara

I went with lime this time. I've had actually all of the flavors that they have in stock at Pret The pineapple is my least favorite lime favorite lemon, okay.

Eli

Pineapple tends to veer towards too sweet when you get it in a seltzer variety. Lime is kind of foolproof or lemon.

Clara

Lime, lemon, pineapple skewed too artificial for me.

Eli

Are they both finished? Because they both seem a little weighty.

Clara

Well, listeners, one of them. This one is like just opened and then this one has a little splash left but it's lukewarm now.

Eli

All right. Well, I do love seltzer. But today on the pod we have staff yaka who is the Head of Content at SSENSE, if you didn't know how to pronounce it before that, that is how you pronounce it. The oft cited e-comm giant, but she helps really lead up their editorial arm. It was a fascinating conversation and we learn a lot about Michelle Lamy. And who Rick Owens is who, you know.

Trey

Who listeners may not.

Eli

That's true. That's true. Sorry. I'm giving you a lot of shit for that it's true.

Trey

I like to level the playing field. And if I'm targeted for that.

Eli

No, no, no, no, you shan't be targeted.

Trey

I'm about inclusivity. So yeah. No I just think it was really interesting conversation, though. Because SSENSE has done something a bit different than most of the other luxury, retail commerce platforms, if you will, where, you know, I think that as luxury retail be can kind of like becoming a thing bubbling up around maybe like 2008-2009. There was this kind of real need to assert like a POV rather than just being like, what are you selling? And what is your product? So a lot of them sprung up these editorial arms or platforms, there was Porter magazine for Net-A-Porter group, which also includes Mr. Porter, there was like I think end clothing had some kind of editorial magazine, but essentially, SSENSE really carved out a space by working with some really established editorial people like York, Koch, I don't know if that's, I'm pronouncing it right. But he is the Editor in Chief of 032c magazine out of Berlin. So it kind of took this like, anti mainstream tactic of covering things that were a lot left of center than traditional mainstream fashion stories. So a lot of the like, things that they cover, on essence are everything from, you know, celebrity profiles to like is Wim Wenders a fashion icon or hero to how the West was worn, which is all about like the history of Western wear and how it's kind of bubbled up in culture. Recently, Beyonce is cowboy Carter album release, to just like really fun, product focused stories that are like working with the coolest photography, talent, the best stylists, and it really kind of puts the product forward in a way that doesn't feel like so commercial, I suppose its editorial in its approach, which I really appreciate.

Steff Yotka

Yeah.

Clara

Yeah and I thought it was interesting to what she had to say about like, taste making and the ability that they have, which is different than maybe some other editorial teams to like, really rely on the people like the stockists and people who are making buying decisions for SSENSE itself to kind of help put them on to like rising designers rising creatives. And you know, the benefit that that plays both in terms of like from an editorial standpoint, but also for projects like their most recent trend report of just like having a much wider team who's like, basically whose range of expertise kind of runs a bit more of like a gamut versus kind of like constantly trying to react to like, what's trending on Instagram, what's trending on Tik Tok, and kind of like getting caught up in the same conversation that everyone else is from a media standpoint, because I agree, like I think essence is voice whether you're looking at social or whether you're reading their articles is like always very clear. And you know, that it's them. And I think that that's something that's just like rare broadly, honestly, in media now, like if you're reading, not to name names, but like a lot of fashion coverage, it can feel kind of like bullet and regurgitating the same talking points, but I think SSENSE stays fresh in a way that's like very admirable, because of maybe that sort of like diversity of thought and, you know, expertise. Yeah.

Trey

Yeah. And I do think that at the heart of every brand, do you want to tell a story around a product and like, I think SSENSE has really kind of nailed that storytelling. thing approach where? Yes, it is a bit kind of strange having church and state being like editorial and commercial under one roof. But they've sort of managed to really carve out a space where editorial has its own POV that doesn't seem dictated by like, clicks or sales or line sheets or anything like that. So, in that sense, I think they've done a pretty bang up job, I guess you'd say for reaching a consumer in a way that feels organic and like, genuinely interesting.

Eli

Yeah. And she was kind enough to bring us each copy of their their recent trend report called your life 2.0. The top of the memorandum asks, What if you were the trend all along? But yeah, Clara, to your point about like.

Trey

do you feel like you've been the trend all along, Clara?

Clara

Yeah. Are you taking that question to me?

Eli

That wasn't my initial question. But.

Trey

Suddenly, the coons isn't me, as Lady Gaga says.

Clara

I do think what was interesting, and I don't know if this is a direct answer to your question, Eli, but what she had to say about giving the giving the consumer options, and that that being something that they tried to do at Essence, with their editorial, but then, you know, I think also broadly, they do a really good job of not tasting thinking in a way that is prescriptive, or telling you what's in or out, but basically, giving you a much broader base and depth of knowledge to then make your own decision based off of and I think, well, I don't want to sort of ruin what we get into. But I think when in talking about this most recent like Trend Report, right? Right up is not the right word, this most recent trend report, Project memo, white paper, she was sort of speaking about that if like, you know, the consumer themselves, like whether you're looking at algorithms and depending what you make of algorithms, are they telling you what to do? Or are people telling the algorithm what's resonating wherever you land I guess on that question, like the consumer does have a lot of like ability to drive the conversation and then is your responsibility then as a brand to tell them that that decision they're making to explore a tomato girl? Tomato girl

Eli

core like amazing how often that comes up? Isn't? I

Clara

know, but like, Is your job as a brand to tell them that that's right, wrong? Or like, you know not cool? Or is your job as a brand to like, Okay, you want tomato girl like here? You're fucking

Eli

talking about being a tastemaker? Wouldn't it be like more of a guide than like, or less of like a guide and more of like, here's what's cool, what's not exciting, so

Clara

but I think she's an I don't want to like put words in her mouth. But I think that part of what's interesting with your life is taking those trends as a jumping off point at somewhat of face value, but building off of them into lands that are like, maybe lesser explored, like kind of taking the sum. I don't know the sum of different trends and like China, kind of trying to like craft where they're going after that. But I don't know, I can

Trey

be so bold, if you look at like their Instagram, I think and I'm not going to, you know, project what I think their social strategy is, but they basically do a really good job of categorizing aesthetics and making them into shareable meme formats, so that they can pair an outfit or these pink shoes with like, a specific kind of person who might make a reservation at the new restaurant at 6pm. Like, right, as soon as it opens, no one's getting a reservation, reservation, but

Eli

$700

Trey

You know, like, gatekeeper, good girl, boss, neutral, whatever. Like they kind of play into these funny tropes that are kind of bubbling up in the cores and the aesthetics of culture, and to kind of flipping them on their head in a way that feels like they're in on the joke, which I think is hard to do as a brand. But when you have all of these, I guess brands underneath your umbrella, you have like a lot to play with. You mean they photograph all of the brands themselves and house with their own models, they, you know, direct all their own editorial stuff like that. So you can really have a lot of material to play with and make it fun and interesting for your audience. Yeah,

Clara

and I think it's also then it's like, less you as a brand like, or as an editorial body like taste making from an ivory tower, you know, and like telling people in this sort of, like, dictatorial way like this is out. This is in and it's more like, engaged in what I think consumers are engaged with, which is just like very earnestly liking or disliking these different aesthetics. And you kind of aren't in the position that like maybe historically, some fashion, tastemakers have more abandon or like more sort of like traditional ones where you're telling people in a very prescriptive way what to do, which I don't know, Eli, what do you think you're the trend?

Eli

No, no, I mean, yeah, I was kind of getting a little bit or I guess, trying to interrogate a little bit. What you're saying is like, do you train the algorithm or does kind of the algorithm train you? Because I, yeah, towards the end of this memory, Random which I have in front of me, the trend isn't new, the only way to self actualize in your overly annotated, incessantly updated world is to be yourself. I think that's very true. That was my own adaptation, you must choose your way forward, the data shouldn't tell you how to live, you train the AI to paint a more beautiful future. You choose your efforts, you are the catalyst and the information to be received by the world. What world will you build? I mean, I think it's well written, it's very well written, I think, yeah, I might be on a slightly different playing field. And where I think that like, people are being more steered by the data than they might like, then they might like to think I think this is a good, like, nudge forward. But I think the reality is, and something that we've talked about, especially in the prediction area, with like, a FEM era, is that it's hard to delineate what is for you like what he says, like, what is for you, and what's quote for you, as a consumer now, and it takes a lot to, I don't know, put your foot down and be like, No, this is something that I'm interested in, or like, No, this is something that the algorithm thinks it knows me by but I'm not really into I

Clara

guess that's what I don't think that I am saying that anything much different than what your thoughts are here. I think what I'm saying is that, like, what essence is doing is like, in my opinion, is like high, kind of like hiding vegetables and your mac and cheese. Do you know what I mean? of giving people is like serving people to trends that they want to engage with, or that are like topical to the moment, but doing it in a way that is coming from a high tech, like a high taste level and a high degree of expertise in that field. Yeah, do you know what I mean? So it's not like you're, you're being served up, like, get the tomato girl look with these, like seven essentials from Sheehan, or whatever, you're more so getting like a fun or clever riff on that. And maybe learning about a new designer that you hadn't heard of before, or, you know, being encouraged to like tap in and learn more about a piece or learn something about styling that like you wouldn't have thought of by yourself based off of an outfit that they put together kind of in response to it. Because I think where I'm coming from, I guess in it is if everyone is kind of overwhelmed by their phones and by Trend cycles, and like is the best way to kind of guide the horse to water by telling them they're wrong for doing what they're doing now, or kind of like, take what's happening now as a jumping off point to something better, which I think is more of an essence does is like follow us down this like fun road. But you know,

Eli

I'm not trying to I'm not trying to be well,

Trey

yeah, I want to give an example of something that I think is maybe obvious, but like, I think what essence does really well is add context like they do with this trend report. Because what we've been seeing recently is there's a lot of luxury retailers that have been kind of going into administration or filing for Chapter 11. And all of the product that they have is ending up on walmart.com. So you can now buy like a Birkin bag on Walmart. You can buy like Drees Van Noten on Walmart, you can buy the row on Walmart, and I think people are kind of, I mean, I'm gonna use this term, but it's overdramatic, people are freaking out that these like luxury high fashion brands are appearing on a retailer that it doesn't make sense for. And it's devoid of context. So the average Walmart shopper is probably like, well, they're probably not aren't bothering, but they saw it they weren't, they'd be like, What the heck is this doing on walmart.com and luxury folks are like, What the heck is going on Walmart calm. So I think, you know, devoid of context, when there's nothing to kind of play something in context, it loses all meaning. So in that sense, I do think essence is adding, you know, with context, to help people make decisions, however they choose to make them and ultimately it's on the person or the consumer themselves to figure out what they want to be.

Eli

Alright, let's hear from Steff herself on all of this. Let's bring her on. Steff Welcome to the pod.

Steff Yotka

Thanks for having me.

Eli

Fresh off a long flight from a Venetian airport hangar maybe?

Steff Yotka

Yeah, definitely. I'm still a little timezone unaware.

Eli

When did you get back and where were you actually so importantly,

Steff Yotka

thank you. I was in Venice for Michelle amis 80th birthday. She is Rick Owens wife and she's also an artist and musician, a designer, an icon in her own right. And so the party was in this abandoned airport hangar at the private airport on Venice Lido so like, a little bit away from Central Venice chaos like no tourists, like very slightly hard to get to maybe. And it started at 11pm to the normal time for an 80th birthday party to start

Eli

After they serve the jello Sorry, no disrespect.

Steff Yotka

No they served energy drinks beer and scrambled egg and caviar sandwiches.

Eli

I read I was reading about that in your recap. He's what is before we dive back in what's your take on egg and caviar sandwich as like drunk food? Was it? Did you? Yeah, it was good.

Clara

And crazy. Not

Steff Yotka

I wouldn't have come up with it on my own. But I was very glad it was being offered to me at like, 1:30am Yeah, whenever

Trey

I've had caviar, I'm just like, is this what y'all are raving about? You know, am I wrong?

Steff Yotka

I don't know. It's salty. It's pretty good. Yeah, it

Trey

feels like one of those foods that like you have to be impressed by like s cargo or like oysters even. I'm just like, you really neck and back these like wet? I've

Eli

never had it. I've never had it. So what was your hind who had your back? Michelle amis 80th party.

Steff Yotka

I guess the highlight for me was they had nearly nude dancers that were all painted white and wore black wigs like in the style of Rick Owens own hair. And they were on the roof of the airport when you got there. And I was like, you just don't see that every day, like very diehard to dancing sculptures. And then a performance artist called Gina Marvin got on one of the platforms inside the party, like maybe like 3am. And she's just like, amazing, like, transfixing the way that she moves her body and she had her makeup done. And I was just like standing at the bottom of this platform like, mouth agape looking up at her being like, wow, you know, you just see something that's like, it seems so easy. Like you're like person dancing on a platform, whatever. And then someone who really is like an artist and like embodies this performance, like..

Trey

Was it like an Anne Imhof related thing or was it?

Steff Yotka

Well, Anne Imhof was there so I don't know if she was consulted on the vibe. But yeah, it was kind of like..

Trey

For like, thriving dancer like. Right. Anne Imhof adjacent.

Steff Yotka

Felt very of her piece of her work for sure. A great space. It's at the intersection of art and fashion.

Trey

Our favorite place to occupy. Okay, so what else happened there? Like I know you were there to interview Michelle Lamy and I think to back up for our listeners, and as much as I could get them ahead as now as I really want to give them the full like, what are we talking about here? They probably don't know who Rick Owens is. I don't want to assume anything. But who is Rick Owens? Yeah, I think Jacques didn't know. So let's just..

Steff Yotka

If you're listening to this podcast and Trey is really underestimated what you know please write in. Please call in. Well, Rick Owens is a fashion designer. He started his brand. Guess what is it? 30 years ago or so I'm told in the early 90s I think either this year or next year is his 30th anniversary of being a brand. He's sort of most famous for black drapey clothing that feels like golf adjacent kind of like moody, slightly spooky, big on platform shoes. He also makes a lot of clothes that Dave Chappelle wears like the two long beige drawstrings is sort of a wreck signature. Jack Dorsey loves Rick Owens, like Google image. And you'll find him in a full Rick Owens fit. So he's kind of like a cult fashion hero. He's also a very nice person, like very kind, very welcoming, loves to like, share his view of the universe with people. So I started writing about Rick Owens when I was a fashion writer at Vogue, where I worked from 2015 to 2022. And I think like, when you're in fashion, and you meet someone who's so self assured in their vision, it's like such a relief. So like, Oh, like this man only can design like from his soul. Like he likes dreams at night of these like black platform boots, and he makes them where it's like, you know, at times fashion can feel as corporate as any other industry. So I've always had like a real soft spot for Rick. Yeah, I'm in kind of trying to like, get into his world. However, he would have me. So you hung out with his wife, which is a good way to do. Yes, I'm making my way into the inner sanctum.

Trey

And wait, just also to kind of describe So Rick is like, not 80 and it's also I think, fairly well known that he's not straight. But like nobody, you know, nobody can tell me the full story.

Steff Yotka

I definitely can't.

Trey

I'ts a platonic muse and master sort of dynamic.

Eli

I think there's a lot of creative partnership,

Trey

I think I think it is like

Steff Yotka

Yeah, they're definitely in love with each other having like spent time around them. It's like not to be like cheesy and sentimental, but I'm sort of like, oh my god, you guys have been together for like, almost 40 years. Right? And you still like, are so hyped on each other like at the party, Michelle was on stage like, sort of like screaming into the microphone and record like gazing up at her lovingly. And I was just like,

Trey

This is what I want. Bear naked dancers dancing around. Okay, so you work at SSENSE, which is a multi brand retailer and editorial platform? Is that how you describe it?

Steff Yotka

Yeah, I think SSENSE. Which Let's spell it out. Literally. It's S S E N S E. A lot of people say sense.

Eli

Yeah. How many people? Do you run into that say that,

Steff Yotka

More than you think.

Eli

A lot of lisenters of this podcasts.

Steff Yotka

Well, it's sort of honestly, before I worked there, I was sort of not sure how to write. I was just kind of like, you know, that store, Canada. But yeah, it's pronounced SSENSE. And yeah, we're a multi brand retailer based in Montreal, we have a physical store there. But we've run like a pretty thriving editorial platform since the 2010s. And before I worked at SSENSE, I was so jealous of one, anyone who worked there. And to just like the kind of stories they got to write or the kinds of stories they were publishing, it felt like when you're freed from the SEO gods, and allowed to follow your taste or your passion, you can do such amazing storytelling. And like, I literally used to Google like how to get a job. Because they were never really hiring. And also the company is based in Montreal. So it wasn't like I could run into anyone that worked there. In the way that in like the New York media scene of which we have both been members, you need to kind of bump into everyone and you're like, Oh, you need me to write something or what's going on at your magazine or your brand. So it's very opaque to me how it worked, but I was so jealous. Like, I wanted to work there more than anything. And then my current boss, Tom Bettridge, who's our creative director, and used to be the editor in chief of Highsnobiety sent me like a very strange DM one day that was like, Hey, we should have breakfast. Yeah. And I was like, okay, like, I love Tom. I think he's so cool and creative, and nice and fun, and well dressed. We're actually both wearing sort of complimenting outfits today. But I didn't he was still working at Highsnobiety when he deemed me so I wasn't really sure what tricks he had up his sleeve. And then maybe like the morning we were meeting, it was announced that he was leaving highsnob and going back to SSENSE, on the subway to meet him. I was like, Oh, I bet he's gonna ask me about that. Yeah. And about like, 20 seconds into the meeting. I was like, whatever you want. I'll do. So yeah, I ended up there. One of those words that I try not to pronounce, he's German.

Trey

So yeah, like you said, that kind of started as like this robust editorial platform, as well as like the site that sells luxury fashion of all and really takes like a big, I would say risk on a lot of younger labels, labels from different parts of the world that don't have like, any kind of presence other than perhaps on SSENSE. So in that way, it's very good for like discovery of new brands. But I think the articles specifically, have always had this sort of like esoteric flavor in terms of like you said, divorced from SEO or trying to feed an algorithm or something. They've been very kind of like considered artful, I believe it was like, kind of headed up. And I'm not sure if it still is by Yorg, and I don't know how to say his last name... So he was the founder of 032c magazine. And he was kind of brought on to start the editorial site, for SSENSE, which is actually just the main site, which is like, actually, question, when you go to ssense.com, you don't see immediately the clothing or the shoe or whatever. You see the words the writing the articles, all Steff Yotka.

Steff Yotka

It's my blog. No. I think the way that I've thought about what we do editorially, at SSENSE is that the articles and the storytelling is like the first thing If you quote unquote buy from us like it's a free purchase in like visiting our website and reading anything that we write or looking at any content we make on social media, you're participating in being an audience or being a customer for us and like, how fun is it to get to be in charge of storytelling, there's like divorced from Commerce, in some capacity, like we are really able to follow our tastes. And I think where we try to storytell, or the things we try to spotlight are really in that halo of fashion, where it's like, you probably know Rick Owens, but maybe you don't know about his wife, or you don't know that it's her 80th birthday. So like, let's dig a little deeper there and find something or one of my favorite SSENSE articles that went viral, before the pandemic maybe was written by Max Lakyn, about tiny wooden stools. I was like, Why does everyone have a tiny wooden stool in their apartment, like what's going on? Still relevant, but I think like, you know, we're trying to like find the people or the obsessions, or the designers or the artists or, you know, just like the ideas that are percolating around the center beating heart of fashion that is covered so well by so many magazines, and how can we kind of sketch around this perimeter and make our customers or the people who read essence feel like more informed, more plugged into the system so that when they buy a garment from us, they also know its history, who made it what that person's into what their favorite playlist is, where they go on vacation, like, whatever kind of fun, fun fact that you could find.

Trey

And I think that's kind of interesting, because we talk a lot now about world building. And I think for a global retailer like essence, it could very easily have gone and I know how old is the platform now? Like 20 years? Okay, so SSENSE is 20 years old and that 20 year yeah, it's like find it yeah, it's been around for a while but I think like in the past 10 or so it's really carved a space for itself as this leader of your storytelling and like shading and those kind of outside lines. And you know, as all these brands now talk about world building, it could have been very easy for SSENSE just get like lost in the ether a bit like not naming any other multi brand retailers that are failing currently. But you know, like, I think storytelling is a huge part of it. So how how did you or how did you when you came along? How did SSENSE kind of build a really unique identity?

Steff Yotka

Very good question. I think we've always the brand has always liked celebrating maybe like the independent or the unsung, like, in and of itself. SSENSE is different from other retailers like we're based in Montreal, before the pandemic to work at SSENSE you had to live in Montreal so it was like only existing in what maybe is not considered a fashion capital. And like you mentioned before, like a lot of the designers are the brands that we carry it's like sometimes we're their only stockist sometimes were their first stockist, we like to be their best stockist. But you know, if you're really searching for like, the SC 103 leather link bag or like a new Kiko Kostadinov sneaker or a Nicholas Skovgaard hat made of 1000 ostrich feathers, like, we got you like we have that. And I think just applying that mentality of like, what is slightly outside of the norm that we can talk about, like we're not really chasing the same trends, maybe as other magazines. I also think there's so many people talking about fashion now. And like myself, and my colleagues are consuming all of it. And it's like what else do we have to say that's a different you know, you don't want to be just another voice in the chorus saying like, Damn, we love Lana Del Rey, like, even though like nothing is more true than that. It's like how do we have our own story. I love Lana Del Rey.

Trey

She's incredible.

Steff Yotka

Just everything about her.

Eli

So who Lana Del Rey exactly, just for our listeners.

Steff Yotka

But yeah, just finding our own angle and our own voice. And I think like I'm very grateful to have like, the long leash of approval from our CEO and our CMO and Tom is my boss. And, you know, we're just kind of like following our interests down these rabbit holes. And I honestly believe maybe this is like cringe alert sound effects here. But if you write about things that you love, it just resonates with other people. I'm like, you just me talking about something I don't know anything about, you're gonna be like, pass me talking about like, Michelle Lamys 80th birthday, you're like, oh, okay, like, this girl obviously is like so into this and even through the written word, you can feel that passion. So I think that's sort of what our guiding principle is.

Clara

Yeah, I guess to that point, I'm also curious with world building, like how taste making works or doesn't work, at SSENSE, because I think like thinking somewhat historically, like Vogue, or like some other fashion publications have been looked to as like, if you're coming up, or you want to learn more about this topic, like, here's the Bible for you. And I think what's interesting with SSENSE, obviously, there is a high degree of taste and like a high level of expertise, but it doesn't feel like prescriptive, or like someone is bossing you or telling you what to do. It feels like very exploratory, in a way that I think is maybe a reflection of the fact that the people that work, there are genuinely sort of enjoying these brands, appreciate these designers. So I'm just curious, like, how I don't know how you sort of see like taste making as being part of like the world that you build, at SSENSE.

Steff Yotka

I think it's a fun place to work, because you're always learning about something new. Like, we're always waiting on a new designer, that like just graduated from college, and like, they don't really know how to do production, but we're gonna help them figure it out. And we have like an army of buyers, like dozens of them who sort of like scour the world, both IRL and on social media, finding cool new products or cool new designers. And so there is like a real shared knowledge base, where like, if I feel like I've hit a creative wall, and I'm like, damn, my taste is not making right now. I can, like start a Slack message with some of our buyers in London or some of our team in Montreal and be like, hey, like, what have you guys seen recently that you're really stoked about like, you know, what movies? Are you watching? Who's your favorite person on Instagram? Like, what TikTok sound is like infiltrating your subconscious. I think we just trust our gut. And, like you said, I don't think we want to be prescriptive, like so much of fashion can feel like, everybody's wearing loafers, and you have to wear loafers. And I think we're kind of like, hey, loafers are an option. If you're into like, if that's your vibe, let us show you like five really cool new loafers that maybe people haven't seen yet. But if it's not your vibe, like we've also got flip flops, we've also got sneakers, we've also got shoes that look like human hands. So like, you know, there's something nice about our product offering being so diverse that you can kind of lore people down different little pathways in the garden and say, like, Are you into this, okay, now you hate that route this like, it really is like a holistic, fun experience. And I am really grateful that we have such a large buying team here like really like, like, I just want to download their brains into a computer and have them tell me everything about clothes. They're like so much more knowledgeable than I am. And they've like, touched every garment that like exists on our website. I'm just like, like, how do we translate this to our user? Because it's such interesting information. I think I trust them. I also trust my own instincts. I trust Tom's instincts. And I think we're just kind of like, we're just going for it at the end of the day. And one of the things that like a lot of our buyers do, or I forced them to do, maybe they would answer this question differently, is like, during fashion week, when they're taking appointments, I'll be like, send me every photo that you see of something pink, or like, send me every pair of jeans or send me like all the bows like when bows were really trendy. I was like, honestly, every single one. And my phone was like blowing up because they're just, you know, they see things that other people don't maybe or they're forced to have such an intimate relationship with a product. Or it's like for me, yeah, I go to fashion shows. And I've really tried to go to more showrooms since I've started working at this job. But most of the stuff that we sell, I see on the website, or I'll see it like at a designer event or something. And they literally like know exactly like if I was like how many studs are on this panel? There'll be like 175.

Trey

How do you decide then? What's the story on SSENSE.

Steff Yotka

Like about a brand or?

Trey

Just anything? Like you're in a meeting, I assume with your team 12 colleagues, how many people work there, I don't know. Like, do you just go like, Hey, what are you seeing? What is your team seeing abroad? Like how does it work?

Steff Yotka

Yeah, we sort of we like to throw a lot of spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks. Like. I think, to me, it's like if three people are vibing on an idea, then I'm like, Okay, it's a trend. Yeah. fashion editor brain goes off. Um, but if like multiple people on our team are like, Oh, I actually am like hearing a lot about this brand and like, or someone had dinner last night was wearing it, then I'll start to be like, okay, like my spidey senses are tingling, that this is happening. And I think our content team lives across the United States, Canada and the UK. So we have just within content, like, very long tentacles, on our octopus. And so I think if everyone is sort of like, in agreement, that something is cool. And also, I think, like, I'm okay with trying things and then not working out. Like, I don't really feel, maybe a story is a bomb. And that's a bummer. But it's still a learning experience.

Trey

So yeah, cuz I think there's so I mean, you must have access to so much debt, like data, data data? But specifically, the things that I don't know throw me I'm really into, like Lauren Sherman's puck news newsletter. And I just was seeing all the reports coming out about like, earnings, Q1 earnings or something. And miu miu got, like, plus 89%. Which I don't know that I'm not like a math person, but that seems huge. And like, close to 100, close to 100. Obviously, they had like a huge shoe collab. But I'm wondering, because like on to say, Yeah, I'm wondering, you, me, me, me. Yeah, I'm wondering, like, how much is informed by like, oh, this type of belt is selling really well in Montreal? Or, like, you know, does that ever inform any of the stories that you work on? Or?

Steff Yotka

I mean, I love sort of like, the human side to data. So like, Why did miu miu grow 89%? Also, I think it's like, don't well, I'm on a podcast. I can't say Don't quote me on that.

Eli

My pen is out right now.

Steff Yotka

Like people are gonna listen to us. It is like one of the largest jobs at a brand I feel like since Alessandro Mikkeli started at Gucci.

Trey

Gucci is in the, sewer.

Steff Yotka

Different now. But um, when Alessandro started, their revenue went up over 300% I think everyone was like, wow, this is like unheard of. So I don't think we like hit a triple digit increase. Since then, people would probably be able to fact check this at like BLF immediately, but seeing miu miu go up 89% You're like, wow, but then the question for me is like, why? I think it's because they hired Lotta Volkova as their stylist, she's like a cultural lightning rod. Who just like has what seems like this God given gift to like, assume? I don't know just just like identify a moment or identify what's cool or what should be cool. And then I think also what you're seeing on miu miu runways since that show with a really short pleated skirts and like the huge expose midriffs is clothing that feels quote, unquote, normal. Like I think, something that Tom Brown said to me once he was like, my clothes aren't outrageous, people just think they are because I've subverted the most normal item there is, which is a suit. And I think like that tension of something which you think you understand, like a pleated skirt, or a polo shirt, or like a band aid, like at the most recent two mu mu shows ago, they just wore colored band aids on their feet. And people like lost their mind for the band aid is like you could get that at the CVS downstairs. Right. But seeing this together, like seeing your understanding of the world, slightly subverted. And I think classic clothes are really making a comeback. I think, like Normcore is probably like right on the cusp of a huge resurgence and culture. And so to me, it's like, if we talk about miu miu, we're not talking about it, because it's 89% More successful this year than it was last year, but we're talking about it because it's tapping into something in the cultural zeitgeist that people are really feeling.

Trey

Yeah, that's like my big question is like, what is going on in the culture that you know, to like tap into? Because I think, you know, to one degree, I think you've explained it well, in that you've got kind of a global network of people who are like literally boots on the ground, feeding back to you. And I think a lot of you know, brands and stuff are always looking for like that big culture driving idea and it can often be stuck in this like cultural loop like very myopic, very like, oh, the same things happening. Cores are trending. And I actually did you know So we talked a bit about like, in the essence Trend Report, you did speak a bit about cores and stuff. And you also said in an email to us, and this is very just like, whatever. But you said in an email to us that the reason that you thought, I don't want to paraphrase you, so you can explain this better. But like, the reason that like, this is how I interpreted, spit it out. The reason that like cores weren't stupid, basically, is because it gave just people an opportunity to choose their own thing and like, identify how they want to identify. And maybe you can just expand on that, I guess.

Eli

Yeah. And what the Trend Report is, right?

Steff Yotka

Yes. Okay. So I'll start with the broadest concept, which is we produce an annual trend report that's like printed out and sent in some orders and available to some friends, what you're hearing, what you're hearing right now is the physical document. And so at the end of March, we released our trend report for 2024. That's really based around this idea of the user. Maybe not overtaking the machine, but certainly being in charge of the machine. And I think we were really inspired by this idea of how all of these like conflicting aesthetics can exist at the same time. You know, like, the corporate core of one strain of quiet luxury, which is like dressier clothes, blazers, like, you know, fetishizing the office, I think on TikTok, people call it office siren like Giselle Bucshon in The Devil Wears Prada when she's wearing those tiny glasses. And she's like, No, I work in an office. And she like pushes the glasses up.

Trey

Great acting.

Steff Yotka

Thank you. Versus like the other end of quiet luxury, which is very like cashmere onesie. Like, you know, Lauren Manoogian, full alpaca sweater in like Montecito drinking and natural wine. And then you have things like the country trend, which is like, I honestly couldn't have predicted it better like Beyonce. Suddenly, after we had done this photoshoot with like, we're releasing a Western album. And like, we all like fell tourneys. And we're like, yes. Again, something that feels like really like city core, really la like baggy, oversized clothes, like matchas, you know, all of these trends are happening at the same time. And I think there's a tendency to maybe only believe that one thing can be true. Like right now is the moment of quiet luxury. I think we've seen brands like pivot so hard to try to meet that consumer. And I think what we wanted to do with the Trend Report is say like, all of this is true at once. And actually the people deciding our fashion future are the users like the more an individual votes with their taller and says like, I'm dark academia, or I'm office siren or I'm quiet luxury. Or I'm tomato girl summer, which is my all time favorite. As someone that went to Amalfi Coast last year on vacation, tomato girl.

Trey

I'm waiting for like actual tomatoes to come.

Steff Yotka

Yeha with a little salt on it. But, you know, people really, users, which traditionally had fashion trends dictated to them by magazines are now really in the driver's seat, not just even voting with their dollar, which is voting with their voice or the content they make or the content they read. And so with our trend report, we wanted to kind of tap into the multiple ideas, multiple trends, multiple realities, and be like, we've made this manual that's filled with like, hundreds of ideas of how you can dress or things that we think are cool. And like we're gonna give it to you, and I hope you take it and like, do whatever you want with it, like find a trend Do you like, find a trend Do you hate rip out a picture and stick it on your wall or burn it? Like, whatever? Whatever you want. It's like about you. And I think that's really exciting. To see an audience like, control some of the narrative, you know, fashion can feel so elite and hierarchical. I'm like, but like, I think the coolest dress people are like teenagers.

Trey

Yeah, absolutely. To play like devil's advocate, though. Okay. So we're in this era of personal style, where like, the user, as we say, is choosing however they want to dress. And people are making recommendations like left and right. Who do you listen to? If you're, like, kind of being bombarded constantly with information?

Steff Yotka

Yeah, I think it's very confusing. I think the the personal style conversation is something I try to not wade into too deeply. Because I think you have to find that in yourself. I think that's maybe also what we're getting at in the Trend Report is like, you must figure out who you are. are like a magazine isn't going to tell you it can simply provide signposts on the highway of your life.

Trey

Well, I love this, like old magazine Steff coming out.

Steff Yotka

Yeah, you know, I'm like, let me do a little spiel. But you know, so I think it's complicated when there's so many like recommendations. But I guess on a personal level, like I read every shopping newsletter, and I always find something to like the maybe I'm just like the ultimate consumer because I like grew up in the early 2000s. And I'm like, you know, I've been primed to, to shop like, my brain is catalogue pilled. Literally, I wrote an article today and I was like, just like in the Delius catalog. The Delius catalog, low key, like the most influential document for millennial women.

Trey

Yeah, I just I missed the days like I was looking at old Eastbay catalogs and like, I feel like we got so much kind of DTC magazine, like signposts on the way of figuring out who I am that now I'm like, where did these people go I guess online, but it's old.

Eli

I think, more devil's advocate, I would say like we used to have maybe I'm skewing on the on the younger side, I guess like traditional tastemakers, legacy media, etc. Now, due to the fact that like, media is kind of broken, etc. We have like, what would you say to the argument that instead of tastemakers we just have like algorithms versus like, no. But you know what I mean, because I think that the argument is, and I buy into a lot of it is that the algorithm influences a lot of what you see the tomato girls, the office sirens, because that is what garner's attention and attraction about not attraction in the way just have like, eyes to screen. Yeah. But yeah, because I think the way I interpreted it in the, at least in the email thread is similar to how you're saying is that SSENSE is trying to incentivize you to find and discover your own taste. Do you think that like, algorithms get in the way of that? Am I being too nerdy and like shut up?

Steff Yotka

I think it's a really a good conversation to have. I think an algorithm couples with, like, really fun, flirty, and thriving reality is sort of the ideal mix. Like in our New York office, where I just came from, it's like a mostly male audience in that office. And I feel like just hanging out with these guys, like with Tom with our social editor, Robbie, with her Managing Editor, Ross, I like the things that they're shown on their phone are so different. From what I'm showing, like I see only like Grimes videos, Lana Del Rey, and like cute animals, and they're living in a world that's totally different to mine. And I'm sort of grateful for that. Because then when we sit together and talk about stuff, we just have totally different references, and I learned something and they learned something. So I think if you, you've got to like, take what your algorithm gives you and then compare with your besties, or your enemies, like, find us on the flip side of TikTok that you're not on? And how can you talk to that person and find out, like what they're into. I mean, we're all addicted to our phones, but like... Because I think I want to hear your take on and I'm sure you've been following Deez Links, kind of week. So Delia Cai on is that how you say her name. So Delia Cai... We're really struggling with pronunciation.

Trey

I know. But I'm just like really bad at names. And I don't want anyone to feel like they're calling her but I believe her. I probably know her right?

Steff Yotka

We don't know each other IRL so I actually don't know how to pronounce her name.

Trey

But okay, so Delia, who has a newsletter called Deez links, and so good, there's been kind of like this week of hate reads or kind of anonymous penned articles. And one in particular, was written about the state of menswear, and how men in particular who are kind of interested in fashion have fallen into this sort of algorithmic closed loop system where you're either like, you know, ric-bro, or I don't know, you can kind of clarify for me, but like, I'm curious how to what degree do you you know, think that menswear is sort of in a broken state.

Steff Yotka

Menswear in crisis

Trey

The most general terms how many dress.

Steff Yotka

I mean, I love Delia's newsletter and I'm glad that I had already subscribed so that I like didn't miss it. Hey, read. I think to talk about that newsletter is the broadest concept I think like the success and the virality of what she's done is like totally, thanks to her own journalistic instincts of like finding the right people and acid them to write about things and I just want to be like, like shaking a stick. Yeah. I mean, like, this is what you're missing, like mainstream media, like she has the freedom to go and find this. And I love that. Like she owns this newsletter and like every day, I think today was the last day. But I like wait for it to arrive in my inbox because I'm like, Oh, it's just so fun. And to hear people's like, unfiltered. You know why you listen to a podcast like, it is delightful, even if they hate a thing that you love. I think it scratches an itch. And in the menswear piece, there's an aside that's like, we're, as a society are too nice to celebrities. And I think that has also meant that we're all meaner to each other, right? Like being mean to celebrities. Like when we were growing up, it was like Joan Rivers made her life's work being mean to us and we loved her for I was born. Yeah, like being mean to famous people was encouraged. And I think like, that's not right. But people today need an outlet where they can sort of like vent. And so this newsletter has really like, opened that faucet. menswear, I think is like particularly for fraught maybe in a way that women's wear isn't because men seem to care about fashion a lot more. I think like there's women's wear, it has existed as a cultural forum for how women should dress. And as a, like high fashion slash art depending on how you view it. Idea for like, almost 100 years, like fashion shows private client fashion shows started the early 20th century, but like fashion week as a concept really came in like the 70s 80s and 90s. And it was still like women's wear fashion was getting all this press and back then. You know, if someone had like a show with a crazy idea, it was like an international incident. You know, like whatever John Paul gotay was up to in the 80s. And 90s was like, This guy's crazy. You know, he's put like cyber robots on the runway. And I think menswear really popped off as an idea. With the dawn of the internet and like blogs and for pins. And now mentors having this reckoning has become so popular. And so many guys are into it. And so many people are following it, that it feels like it's too big, like the cool secret niches. Maybe it doesn't exist anymore in the same way.

Trey

It's like random IP owing or something. They found us.

Steff Yotka

Literally, and so yeah, I can understand why maybe there's like frustration and fatigue within the community. But also I think menswear when I was working at Vouge I was always so desperate to cover menswear cuz I was like, this is where people are really like trying out new ideas. And also like the audience is really engaged like going to PT uomo which is a menswear, sort of like trade show slash fashion festival in Florence. Italy for also in Italy. I'm huge on Italy was like so eye opening to me because not just the designers, but like the store owners, the shoppers, the lay people knew things about the tailoring of a lapel on a blazer that I couldn't even have imagined existed. Like I I hadn't, honestly like never felt stupid, or less equipped to be in a room than with the menswear aficionados talking about like the wool blend on a blazer, I was like, Oh, I'm the idiot here. Like, I don't know any of this. And so, you know, I think it's like a really inspiring place. Men's Fashion Week is so fun. Because fewer people go it's wait. Fashion is really the only industry where menswear is like, second to women's wear. Like, you know, the patriarchy really makes it so that it's hard to drive as a woman but I think like men's wear fashion week gets fun. And I hope that like menswear being in crisis like inspires people to try new things and like freak it even more and find new designers and build new communities or subcultures to like get some more fits off. This is my utopian hope for the future of pants.

Eli

I mean, I'm feeling inspired and educated and ready to get out there. Before we wrap here, I want to let our listeners in on where they can find you find your work essence.com

Steff Yotka

SSENSE.com Or at SSENSE on social media.

Eli

Sweet. Well thank you so much for joining us today.

Steff Yotka

Thank you for having us. This was so fun, should it be 10 more hours of us talking?