Eli

Today the pod, we're joined by Joe Hollier and before hitting him up, I would just like to say thank you to Alexis Castro, member of member, employee of Day One Agency who made the intro because I guess I can speak for all three of us, but I would say top five top, five guests on the pod that we've had so far.

Clara

Yeah, definitely.

Eli

Yeah, I mean, no, I mean, for real, though, genuine, genuine words from the crew here. I think we all left, feeling inspired. Joe is the co-founder of The Light Phone, which if you've been keeping up with any of the discourse, or maybe have one yourself is what's referred to as I guess, like a dumb phone, it's a cell phone that really only makes phone calls. It has a calendar, there's an mp3 player. But that's about it. There's no app store. No Instagram, no TikTok, no, whatever. So I guess really meant for more intentional social, not social media use, it's not meant for social media use at all more intentional phone screen time usage as a whole.

Trey

After we talked, I actually threw my smartphone off the roof.

Eli

You're feeling free?

Clara

I ripped my microchip out of my...

Trey

Unburdened by all.

Eli

It was a very transcendent, transcendental experience. Yeah, I mean, what was interesting, though, is he was like, The Light Phone is not necessarily a solution to all of your problems, although I left thinking it might be, but like, you know, just like getting a gym membership, which I would never do. You still gotta go right. Like getting getting the membership is not fully enough. But I felt like getting the phone might be, you know, might help just a little bit. Just like doing that one curl. Feeling good out there.

Clara

One push up and then dusting your hands off.

Eli

That's enough.

Clara

All right, that's about caps off a full minute of training.

Trey

Can you predict how easy it would be for you personally to unplug fully.

Eli

I think it'd be very difficult. A because it's kind of like an instrumental part of what I and what we do for work. B because I'm an addict. Step one, you know what I mean?

Trey

Can we just talk about how many unread texts you have?

Clara

Yeah, let me pull it up. Not addicted to responding, only addicted to viewing information.

Eli

I'm on DND. Could this be solved by The Light Phone, uh, 520.

Clara

How active are the group chats that you're in?

Eli

Well one is your Con Edison Single Sign On verification code.

Clara

Okay, well, that's not really taking it up that high.

Trey

You know, Con and Ed.

Clara

Eli just texts back and forth with them.

Eli

I think it'd be very, very difficult. But you know, I would like to try but he's right. You know, he talks about when people get the light phone, or when people walk around without their phone, they feel naked. And like, I don't know, even if I'm going to the store.

Trey

It's a nightmare I have really waking up without my phone. No, it's right here.

Eli

It's like missing a Juul, did anyone take my Juul, no you're sitting on it. You're sitting on it. No, but it was fascinating. And even to learn about how he like, the inspiration behind it. I mean, he's been doing this since 2014. Now, obviously, the concept is like very in vogue. But you know, went to this program this 30 week program. I believe at Google.

Clara

We get into it, Joe explains for himself.

Eli

Alright, crews cutting me off. Let's bring Joe on. Joe, welcome to the pod. Thanks for coming here tracking down memory lane by FIT in SVA.

Joe Hollier

Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

Eli

Yeah, absolutely. So just to kick things off, like right now I feel like we're in what seems to be like a major tech lash, against our phones, again, social media against the algorithm. I guess like the more recent Apple iPad commercials, kind of more current manifestation of that. And as always, as all of this is happening, we're seeing kind of a shift or desire to shift towards more analog tech. Within that conversation is kind of a renewed demand for what are called dumb phones. The that phrase, I'm curious to hear what you think of it. But within all that conversation can't help but escape The Light Phone, which is your invention that you came up with?

Joe Hollier

Yeah. With the help of my partner Kai, the two of us, I mean, the word inventions always tricky because like we didn't really reinvent the wheel. But yeah, it's definitely our child that we've raised and somehow have brought into this world.

Eli

So talk us through a little bit about like, what it is why it came to be the research process. I mean, we'll have some questions come up, I'm sure in the middle of that, but yeah, like talk us through a bit of your journey.

Joe Hollier

Definitely that word. At the highest level, the light phone is an intentionally simple cell phone, I think it's probably best defined by what it doesn't do, actually, which is that it doesn't have any sort of social media news feeds, internet browser, email, or basically any infinite anxiety inducing feed. What it does try to do is provide, you know, the basic tools you might need in your everyday life, a phone calls, texts, you know, a few other things like an alarm or calculator or calendar that help you you know, have that peace of mind that you're still able to get on with your life as efficiently as possible. Without bringing the entire internet with you 24/7 in line for the bathroom, the second you wake up. So it's really about trying to be more intentional about your phone use in your tech use. And you know, I think it's not that people get The Light Phone and then completely go live off the grid and never go on the internet. Again, it's about carving out, I want to check my email these hours on this machine. And you know, when I'm with my family, or you know, whatever else it is my art or something else, I'm sort of present. And with that.

Clara

I'm curious to win for you and Kai, the Light Phone either like first came up as an idea or sort of first went into the research and production process, because I imagine it was quite a bit before this sort of conversation, which has really happened in the last year or so I think at least on like a more mainstream level about wanting to distance ourselves a bit from our phones in some way or another. So curious a bit about that to just like, where did the idea spark come from? And what was the research process like in terms of deciding what things to take away?

Joe Hollier

Yeah. So it was a quite a while ago, back in 2014. Google, ironically, had this idea for an experimental program called 30 weeks, it was about a school year long. And the idea was that, if given the right resources and guidance, designers might think of a new type of startup, it was very open ended. And I kind of went in as an artist just curiously, like, let's see what happens very quickly, we kind of realized, Kai and I met in this program, that they wanted us to make smartphone apps, we learned a lot more about how and why these apps were being built and funded. And, you know, the sort of economics behind it, but also the engineering that goes into keeping them, quote, unquote, sticky. And, you know, we learned really quickly that that was basically the number one metric of success. If you could come up with a website or an app that was sticky. You know, people were using hours and hours a day, there was a lot of money to be made, you could collect all sorts of data, sell all sorts of ads. And you know, that sort of really rubbed Kylie and I the wrong way in that, how could some new smartphone app taking one more hour of my time, possibly make me any happier when I'm already feeling habitually overwhelmed. So, you know, as a kind of experiment, we said, what if, you know, like, away messages of my early internet days. What if we gave people the permission to step away for an hour for an evening for a weekend, and so we started giving people flip phones, actually, their calls would forward and they would have 10 speed dials on a piece of paper. And you know, sometimes it was just an afternoon, sometimes we give it to someone for a whole weekend. And the results were really interesting in that everyone basically had a positive experience. You know, that was the most freeing weekend, I was so productive, me and my wife had the best day, you know, it was it was really great. And then when we looked at their phones, no one used the phones, it was almost really the peace of mind that, God forbid, there's any emergency, I'm reachable, but we kind of realized the value of this experiment was that the phone did nothing, that it was invisible and silent. So it gave us this philosophy designed to be used as little as possible. And that's kind of been our North Star in terms of all design decisions since.

Eli

I'm curious I saw you pull out what I assume as a light phone or some type of prototype before the recording. What is your relationship with the product insofar as like, is it your primary device? Or is it kind of like you said, like, Okay, I need focus time or I'm trying to you know, not look at Instagram while I'm waiting for the train or whatever.

Joe Hollier

Yeah, I would say the light phones role has evolved. With the very initial hypothesis back in 2014, we really saw it as like a complementary device that you would use from time to time to go light as we, as we called it, and coined it. But as it evolved into light phone 2, we really realized there was a group of people, myself included, that were ready to ditch the smartphone, and that if it only had a few things like texting, contacts, you know, some of those other little essential tools that actually I didn't need a smartphone, I have a laptop, I have, you know, a tablet for other things. So yeah, I've been full time light phone user for these five years now. And probably don't ever see myself going back to a smartphone.

Eli

You don't have slack on your light phone?

Trey

You've broken free.

Joe Hollier

Yeah. I mean, in all honesty, though, like, that's my favorite part about the light phone is that it doesn't have to work with it. Being able to close my email, at the end of the day, with a symbolic laptop close is like, really, really good for my, you know, work life balance, so to speak.

Trey

I want to know, your personal experience with like, I know you were part of this program, and kind of that was a part of, you know, discovering how the light phone came to be. But what was your personal relationship with technology before? Like, were you anxious because of it? Or can you tell us about that? Yeah,

Joe Hollier

Yeah, I mean, I guess I definitely didn't consider myself a tech guy I didn't really overly, you know, fan out about any new tech, I was very much an artist. So I think I saw technology as something I could futz with. And like play with in ways that weren't expected to make, you know, new sorts of art looking at like Brian Nino's as kind of an example of him being very technologically driven, but with like a very artistic lens. But I would say, what I also noticed happen is that I was a freelancer. So I go to the beach with my girlfriend at the time and want to change a song and then see an email from a client about some stupid revision that I didn't agree with, and I could do nothing about and now I'm angry at the beach, and, you know, sort of threw off my day off, because I wasn't really often. So I think as a freelancer in particular, or, you know, artists in general, it's really hard to have that kind of, like on off time if you're dealing with clients in that regard. So, you know, I didn't necessarily think of myself as like, super addicted to my phone, which, you know, most people would like to not think of themselves that way. But even then, like, there was these instances where I found myself unnecessarily connected, because you bring your smartphone everywhere, you know. And then there was the other side of like, being an artist. And now social media kind of became this like, metric for success, like you only got 100 likes on that painting, you must not be very good or something, you know, like, I don't know, you added this whole new element to a world that I didn't think needed that. So that was a kind of other weird friction I had in my personal life with it. Like pressure to share. But also like knowing that 600 pixels is not enough to view any art in any serious capacity. Right, as Christopher Nolan has very pointedly made the argument for it's so crazy. Whenever I open my phone, and this happens, probably daily, I will admit freely. I'm like, completely addicted. But I'll open my phone, because I'm like, I need to do this one thing. And then I'll open some app and forget why I even opened my phone to begin with. So I don't know, I kind of just feel like, we're in this really dark space.

Eli

It'll be okay.

Trey

I'm saying. I'm like asking you to coach me through this..

Joe Hollier

You're not alone. Everyone has felt that vulnerability, myself included. I mean, yeah, how many times do you check a text? And then you like, 45 minutes went by and right.

Trey

No, but I'm saying more sinister. Like, watching my own Instagram story. Like, for the fourth time, I'm just like, why am I you know, like, nothing new has happened. And it's my own content that I know what it looks like, already. You don't I mean, like, that kind of thing. I don't know. I wonder if there was like, some big unlock moment during this program, where I think we can obviously say, like, we all know that, quote, unquote, big tech has these, you know, specific things are trying to do like make apps sticky or, you know, take our time and suck our souls. But I don't know what it was like that a big realization for you during that program like, did that. Was that something you thought of before? Really? Or was it just like a kind of passing realization?

Joe Hollier

No, I think it definitely. I mean, if I thought about it, it wasn't nearly as with as much conviction as seeing in this program. Founders with good intention start companies and then as they get VC funding and have all these pressures and expectations, the app turns into this, you know, slot machine when really had good intentions. So like, I think seeing enough examples of that, I started to think like, yeah, this doesn't feel right, you know, almost to the point that the whole smartphone is not aligning with my quality of life. And you can start to imagine where you could see that going.

Clara

I guess for for those of us who have not tried to make an app before such as me, like, what exactly are those things that people tend to add? Like, I've heard things like the sort of reward system like not to name names, but like how Duolingo like, you can have a streak and you can have these sort of rewards that it gives you or haptic feedback, like when your phone buzzes when you do something, right. Or all sorts of like built in to make it more addicting. But is there anything like that, that, you know, people might not necessarily recognize when they're using their phone day by day that helps make it more addictive/

Joe Hollier

I mean, those are definitely some of the more obvious and probably, like powerful ones, like different colors, seeing the notifications, the pacing of the notifications, I think, is a really big one, sort of like a slot machine. You know, it's, you see, negative, negative, negative, and then a hit of positive and that dopamine that comes and then you want to wait for the next positive. And so it's like, there's no real thing that you could find on social media that you'd be like, I'm good. I'm signing off. Now. It's this like, more, more more, and there's never quite a goal, which is sort of how gambling addicts feel about slot machines. It's not that, oh, if I win 1000 bucks, then I'm not playing slots anymore. It's, you know, I would say like, probably like, under the hood, stuff that happens a lot. And like, you know, it's almost less obvious and transparent. What's happening is, the algorithms are, you know, optimizing for very specifically you or me or him trying its best as it can to see like, oh, Joe reacts to these types of things very strongly. Let's show more of that. And I think when all the feeds changed from chronological to algorithm that really probably exasperated the problem quite a lot.

Trey

I saw this girl today on the train who was sitting next to me, and she, like, pulled up on her Instagram. And her Explore page was like all photos of girls that looked exactly like her, which I was like, wow, I don't think I've ever really seen anyone else's Explore page on Instagram, and then, you know, when to mine. And I was like, oh, maybe mine is like exactly people who just look like me, you know, which is also sad and scary. But yeah.

Joe Hollier

Yeah, my explorer page is sadly accurate.

Trey

Yeah right.

Joe Hollier

Houses I can't afford skateboarding and cat and dog.

Trey

And like not to rag on this random stranger. But then she like opened Spotify and went to the rap caviar playlist, which was just like, the perfectly curated list of rap songs that just like listens to Like That the Metro Boomin one then I was like, Oh, I see we're getting up to date on the Kendrick versus Drake beef.

Eli

I'm loving this group Brockhampton. I'm curious who, like who's buying, like demographically, because we've, you know, read a lot of headlines and stories, specifically as it relates to Gen Z, and how their relationship with phones and social media is changing? Like, have you gotten a sense a better sense of like, who is buying the light phone? Who is aspiring to buy the light phone? Like what's your market research ooking like.

Joe Hollier

Yeah, I would say our or like, initial hypothesis was really, it's going to be people like me and Kai, who are probably working in the creative industry to some capacity heavily on digital screens most of their day in looking for this kind of, like on off. But we've come to realize that like, it's really hits a nerve that so much wider than that. Right now, one of our biggest markets is actually like Bible Belt families, interesting, who are buying it, not just as like a kids first phone, but actually like their parent and finding themselves on their phone too much with their newborn child, you know, looking up at them not paying attention and sort of having these kind of realizations, which is, you know, a beautiful thing. And like, we also get celebrities on another hand, which is like a different kind of luxury of having personal assistants to kind of manage your digital life and outdoors crowd and students and CEOs like that are thinking very much productivity. So it really like kind of crosses so many different demographics. And I think one we've just started seeing it you touched upon is like, yeah, Gen Z and younger. I wouldn't say it's, like, huge for us in terms of sales, but I think we're definitely feeling that tide shift. I think a lot of them are gravitating towards more nostalgic form factors and nostalgia they never actually quite experienced. But yeah, we hear a lot from like, you should make a flip phone version. Which you know, I think would be cool too.

Eli

The Bible Belt is super interesting. Well, Clara, and I were talking about this article by Gia Tolentino in the New Yorker. And she essentially, like, engaged in this experiment where she was pregnant. And she tried to trick her phone into saying that she wasn't pregnant or essentially, like, she wouldn't look up anything as it relates to maternity or like baby clothes. Because apparently, from like a data, this is just kind of dark. But from like a data brokerage standpoint, pregnant women are like extremely lucrative in terms of what you're able to extract be a because they buy a lot be because you're essentially like, locking in another customer. So I mean, I don't know the full, like details of why the Bible Belt families are buying the light phone. But I just thought that was an interesting aside. I'm also curious, like, where what is the, maybe it doesn't necessarily need to evolve, but like, what do what does the evolution of the light phone look like in terms of you have two versions out currently, right? So like, where do you go from here? If it's not necessarily like an app upgrade? Or maybe it is, or it's a hardware fix or design? Like I'm curious, kind of what's what's next? What's on your radar there?

Joe Hollier

Yeah, I think as like a kind of rule of thumb, we're just trying to make the experience easier. And that's not to say that there's not going to be friction, because it's inherent in such a lifestyle switch. But I think, each time we add a new tool, it's not that we're trying to, you know, get you addicted and spend more time on a light phone. It's really about making a little bit less friction, if coming from a smartphone, one less kind of like, what am I going to do about my calendar, and it's like, oh, now I can see my events in this very simple tool. And I think when it comes to like hardware, we're thinking like, you know, we have this one phone, now it's really small. But there's like, an older generation that's interested in a simplified phone, but can't read the screen, because it's too small, or we get these blue collar workers that have thumbs, twice the size of the phone, and they love it, but they just can't text on it, because it's small. So maybe a bigger phone, you know, maybe a more premium one for someone that's definitely using it as their only phone and wants more battery. And I think, you know, keeping the same ethos, we can imagine a variety of form factors, perhaps maybe there is a flip phone version one day or something like that. So I think on a software side, it's really about just, you know, improving the things that exist, optimizing it, so that you spend even less time on it more shortcuts, more things of that nature, and then on the hardware just yet, trying to make it so that it's designed with the specific person in mind, I think the smartphone tries to do everything for everyone and kind of like, looping back to that iPad commercial that just came out. It's like when a device does everything. You know, the inventor of the first cell phone, Marty Cooper said like, if a device tries to do everything for everyone, it can't do anything well. And so I think we try to make the phone very specific with a specific user in mind. And knowing that that's not everyone, you know, this isn't the perfect phone for X, Y, or Z.

Trey

Well, knowing you're kind of a startup, and that this was sort of born out of this programming, and you and Kai meeting there. How much actual like market research or you know, real true data did you distill into discovering, like, where this was needed and who was looking for it?

Joe Hollier

I would say, very little, actually, I know, a lot of surveys amongst our users. They're very generous and willing to share about their experience and about why they came to the phone. And so we do a ton of user interviews, but we're never doing any sort of mess. It's sort of like, organically, we realized that, well, we just keep selling phones to these people that are writing to us from the Bible Belt about how their pastor was talking about smartphones and getting in the way of family. And, you know, so it was it's more organic in that capacity. But I think there's so many like, books and studies and stats and movies that just keep coming out that we're always tracking and you know, it's pretty scary stuff that comes out of those.

Trey

Absolutely. But how do you kind of evolve the phone from like a planned obsolescence standpoint, because obviously, everybody wants to get like the newest, thinnest iPad, blah, blah, blah. But like, if I know you're at the kind of, you know, infancy still but to Eli's point, like where do you go from here that, I guess makes your customers want the new version? Or is that even a goal of yours?

Joe Hollier

I would say yeah, this is great though that we're talking about it, because planned obsolescence is something we're very adamant about not having in the light phone. And so people do say like, Well, why would I buy the light phone 2 it's been in the market almost five years, you know, like, it's so out of date. And we're like, so proud that we're shipping constant new software, software updates for free to users that have had the phone five years, and I think it speaks to our business model, which is drastically different than most companies in the startup world, or sorry, in the technology world, which is that, you know, we sell the phone for price that enables us to privately offer all of these things, and to continue to support and, you know, hoping that that good faith gives us a lifelong customer so that if maybe light makes things that aren't phones, they're totally on board, or you know, when their phone eventually does, you know, die or get lost for whatever reason that they're like committed to the light phone. So even if we think of new phones, you know, a lot of the feedback is from existing users. So I'm sure some of them will take the jump. But like, we still plan to support our existing products, like if a new light phone were to come out tomorrow, it wouldn't replace the light phone 2 it would be a slightly different user. And just kind of two options going forward. And I think, you know, there's a huge environmental angle to that as well, which is just like if a billion people get a new smartphone every single year, a lot of phones end up in a landfill. So I think we have some sort of like, that doesn't sit right with us.

Trey

Yeah. So you're financially speaking, the new phone purchases, are paying for all of the software updates being free?

Joe Hollier

Yeah, I guess that's in simple terms, more or less how it goes. I mean, we do have a optional service plan, which brings in some recurring revenue so that people can sign up for our SIM card. It's not like locked to our SIM card by any means. But I think a lot of our more diehard supporters like like buying their service from us, because they know that also helping keep our lights on and these software updates coming out.

Clara

I think it's interesting to from, I don't know, like a customer loyalty standpoint, from a tech in the tech world. Like, if you think about Apple, it kind of has this de facto stature as you know, I mean, we're sitting here surrounded by Apple devices. But it is sort of exorbitantly expensive, and it isn't necessarily sustainable, even for the average person, like I don't have a personal laptop anymore, just because I can't afford one. So I mean, worry for the day, I may need one. But do you think that part of or I don't know, is part of the goal with the light phone to transform what people expect from tech to and like provide? I don't know, a different template of how technology would that be fair to say like how technology companies operate in relation to their consumer, like, the closest example I can think of is more of like a Patagonia which has sort of adopted this, like, free to repair free to replace mentality, but is sort of very anti selling people new product for the sake of selling new product? And if so, is that something? I mean, it sounds like it is something that existing consumers are, you know, gravitating towards about light phone, is this sort of philosophy as much as the product itself. Yeah,

Joe Hollier

I definitely agree with that. I think. Sorry, I've like lost the question there for a second.

Clara

thing, just like the philosophy of light phone as being like something that you're not necessarily looking to replace all the time that it's a company that you can call up, buy a service plan from get free software from not a company that's trying to sell your data repackage it, but tell you that it's like super safe, it's in the cloud.

Joe Hollier

Yeah, no and I think, you know, that's probably where I was initially going with that is like, I just feel like so many tech companies aren't honest about that. You know, like, when you open Instagram, you're the product that they're collecting data from, to sell to, you know, people to tell them, you just got pregnant, to like, really all the ads that they're gonna funnel in your feed and hope that you click on and each time you click, someone's paying them even more money. So I just have always felt like there was a, there was a lack of trust. And like respect, actually, you know, one thing we used to say was like, the light phone actually respects you. And I think we just tried to build the company around like how you would treat a friend. It's like, yes, it cost $299 for what seems like a very simple phone. But we're very honest about what the hard costs are going into it and about, you know what to expect from it, which is that we're going to never collect your data. We're not interested in it. And that's because we're charging you and sometimes I wonder what social media could look like, if they charged money if you know, the business model completely changed and there weren't incentives to collect as much data or to you know, keep you hooked and clicking on ads and maybe to genuinely connect you and then like, Get off your phone to go spend time with them. But you know, as it stands, that they're never going to be incentivized to get you off your phone. So it's seems like a fight that just perpetually wanting more and more and more, and it's Yeah, it seems like a kind of toxic relationship.

Eli

Is your marketing primarily, like word of mouth?

Joe Hollier

Yeah, I mean, there's, I wish I could say it was a fully moral decision that were word of mouth and not paying Instagram for ads, but was definitely like a lack of resources as well. But I do think there's some like, we feel really proud that we're not just contributing money to these very systems that we're, you know, so critical of all the time. And word of mouth is great, because, you know, that's just like, the most genuine referral you could possibly have. And a lot of times, it's not that I pull out my light phone at the bar, for instance, and some guys like, what the heck is that? You know, you have a nice talk about technology and humans and how we feel that the relationship is working and not working. And then six months later, or a year later, that person after hearing about the product, seeing a news article, maybe watching the social dilemma documentary, they see all these things, maybe have a couple of, you know, hour long internet holes that make them feel really bad. And then they're like, I'm ready to do the switch. So it's like, I don't know, if the light phone is that good at being marketed in traditional ways, because it requires a lot of the user, you know, it's not just like, you buy the light phone and like, I'm cured of my addiction, you know, if you want to go to the gym, like, yes, you can sign up for the membership, but you actually have to go, right?

Eli

I wouldn't know but yeah.

Joe Hollier

You can buy the blender. But if you don't buy all the veggies each week, and then you're not eating it every day, then like it's not going to change your life. Yeah. So you have to be ready for it. And I think, in a way, it's like almost anti marketing, we try to really ensure that people are ready for the switch and not just be like, just try this phone, it will do wonders, because it won't work. I don't think if you're not ready,

Trey

I yeah, I just want to point out how, like powerful that is, emotionally speaking, were so many things, you know, products and marketing, you have to like build this whole world around it. And that emotional connection established with your consumer. Whereas like, if I saw someone at a bar, pull out a wacky phone, and like the conversation wasn't about even the product, but just like the emotional drive behind wanting to get it and how you feel now owning that is so much more resonant than probably any ad you could pay for anyway. So it's like, that guy might have had a great conversation with you at the bar. And that's what he's thinking about. He's not thinking about like, Oh, what a cool gadget like what esle does it do?

Joe Hollier

Does it have Bluetooth.

Trey

Yeah. Which is, which is like obvious to point out, but I just wanted to because I think that's like really cool.

Joe Hollier

Yeah.

Trey

I don't know, if you've seen those ads, they actually do kind of freak me out on Instagram, where you're like scrolling through, and I think it's for some app that like, shuts down your do like it does something where it cuts you off, basically. But it's done in this very kind of your scrolling, very engaging way, no shade to them. And I'm not sure what their product is. But like, it essentially starts going like you have this many times left in your life to do this like, and it just extremely chaos edit, like quick cuts, trying to get you to, I guess be like woken up or whatever. And then it's an ad for like, an ad for like getting off apps, you know, which I mean, is another clever way to advertise, like the similar kind of lifestyle, I guess, you know, unplugging or disconnecting. But..

Clara

Well, I think that's like an interesting point, too, to the point of a lot of this stuff that's talking about disconnecting and I don't know if it's the same ad, but there's one that I always get that's like, your phone is like a semi automatic gun pointed at your brain download this app. Yeah, and it's so like, aggro and sort of scary and they're kind of scare tactic getting you into being like, Oh my God, my screen time is up and it's like stock imagery of a guy like rubbing his temples. And I think again, sort of to the same point like about the emotional resonance of just simply logging off to something that is not designed to be you know, the end all be all subject of your attention is interesting, even in the context of other apps, etc, that are telling you to log off or be less connected.

Joe Hollier

Yeah, we've for a while avoided using the word addiction. Because if we ever are to talk about the smartphone problems, it's usually in a comedy sense, a light hearted sense, you know, like, isn't it funny? We all do this, isn't it? You know, like not to be like you have a problem, you are the problem, because obviously, there's the smartest people in the world behind these platforms, putting all their energy into keeping us it's, you know, no question how and why we've got here. And so we're always trying to either show the other side of it, you know, and try to lure people that way by being like, life doesn't have to be that way. But also, like, let's make a joke about it. We are all probably pretty addicted to our phones.

Trey

Do you believe we can heal our attention? And by that, I mean, like, I am second screening all the time. You know, I'm just curious, like, if I were not saying that your device is the answer. But like, if I were to get off of social media and stuff, maybe just get rid of my phone? Do you think like your attention can heal? And have you noticed that in yourself?

Joe Hollier

Yeah, I would definitely say that, you can work back some of the damage that's been done, I think, I am not perfect, and not nearly as attentive as I hope to be. But just even in using the phone for a couple of years, I've seen my memory, and my focus improve, I think a lot of it has to do with like, our train of thoughts being just constantly interrupted, versus now, you know, I might be bored. And I might daydream and wander, but it's like a much slower pace. And that things just kind of simmer deeper, and I'm able to remember them more. And yeah, I guess, at a certain point, you do start to really get your attention back. Sherry Turkle had a book called Reclaiming Conversation. And she was very optimistic in that, that, in getting off the internet and relying on it solely for communication, we are able to get some of that back pretty quickly. But I would say it's a struggle. And you know, I might be hit, like, you know, great with my phone, but then I open my computer, and then I'm on the news for an hour. And so you know, it's like a constant. In know.

Eli

Coachable?

Joe Hollier

Yeah, exactly. Just being aware of all the tools and ways that you find yourself distracted.

Eli

Yeah. Do you have, obligatory marketing question. Do you have like brands, or celebrities who approach you? Or if you're brand with Kai, like wanting to collab or work together, like build out a space? If so, do you have, like a philosophy or a point of view on that? Or is it kind of not really, really on your radar and more so focusing on like, the product that you can deliver for both current and prospective customers?

Joe Hollier

I would say we're definitely open minded in that regard. I think we see it as an advantage of what we do in that kind of every brand, to some degree wants to be a little bit of this message. You know, I saw some like, Dove soap ad that could have been like a light phone at once. Yeah, it's all about like spend time with your family, not your phone, Dove soap or something. But your body. So like, I think we're always trying to think of collabs in terms of like, is it genuine and whatnot. And the most notable one we had was last fall, we did a collab with PG Lang, which is Kendrick Lamar and Dave Free's company. And, you know, they've been in conversation with us for like, four years. And they, at one point, were even talking about making their own phone, for the same reasons that Kai and I decided to make our own phone, they sort of, you know, found us in that process and realize, like, Oh, you guys are doing what we wanted to do, we should maybe work together. And though the collab was, you know, pretty simple. We made one little kind of tool for their phone, kind of magic eight ball, you could shake, but I think it was more about the kind of like cosine, and just like them as a brand. It adds like a philosophical value beyond just like we collabed with Converse, or we make these music videos that are amazing, right? It's like, we also believe this. And so I think, you know, that just felt genuine and it didn't feel like I mean, there wasn't like a ton of phones or money to be made. It was really just about saying, like, we believe this, and it's really about creative audience in that one. You know, I think Kendrick really felt strongly that smartphones take kids out of their creative potential.

Trey

Did you get any kind of sales boost after?

Joe Hollier

Yeah, I mean, the phones definitely sold out, I think immediately, which is probably to be expected in that kind of, like streetwear hype brand. But I think it not only brought a lot of new attention to us, I think some people had heard of us and it was a good sort of reminder that we're still out here. And actually like our existing users who had seemingly nothing to gain from it. We're so stoked, and I didn't expect that because I think they felt validated in some way and also that like, oh light is there's momentum growing like they are not going to just fold as a company in a year or two. Like their, this is a growing thing and that maybe you know, their phones will get better. Maybe there'll be new phones and yeah.

Eli

Well, I know you're also an artist. I'm curious if you had and like the as part of the rollout for the PG Lang phone was this like 32nd vignette, where you and your team was it like a collaborative effort, or they came to you with kind of like a vision as to how they wanted the rollout to work.

Joe Hollier

We definitely, like leaned into however they wanted to do it. I mean, we sort of saw really as their launch and a collab with us, but we did a lot of back and forth of them picking our brain and me telling them why and what light means to me. And then they synthesize a lot of that into their press release. So, you know, it did feel like it had our voice in it. But ultimately, you know, like, we gave them full creative control. And there was a big trust in that, you know, I think everything they do is cool. So I wasn't concerned like, they're gonna make something corny.

Trey

How do you differentiate light phone from competitors? Because I'm sure as time goes on, there are probably a few and going to be like, way more soon, right?

Joe Hollier

Yeah, I guess, I've not thought too much of the competition. And in a way we kind of welcome it. Because this market of non smartphone, so to speak, is so niche that, in a way, I feel like more options, the better for all potential players. And also like, it's aligned with what I just said before about, like, there should be more specific phones, more niche phones, for more people, like, you know, when it comes to shoes, or jackets, or basically anything else, there's like a million different kinds, for the millions of different kinds of people there are, but yet, we all have one phone, and you know, maybe someone wants a phone that shaped like a toy car, maybe someone wants a phone, that's, you know, something else. And so we definitely welcome it, I think, I feel so confident in that, like, what we're doing is so sounds so cheesy, genuine, that, like, I'm not afraid that someone can like replicate that easily, I think, to go into business, as hard as making phone hardware and requiring as much resources and money as it does. But then to not get lost in the financial sauce of like, just then trying to grow and build, I think Kai and I are able to really hold a unique position in that. And I think if a bigger brand were to come in, and try. I'm not sure it would be genuine. And I think I'd like to believe that people would probably see through that. So that's kind of how I tried to keep it on the backburner for was like, obviously, from a resource perspective, like, any company could come in, and like crush us and have 40 times our software team and whatever. But I'm like, but the CEO, and Joe and Kai aren't going to be answering the Reddits for their company, like people can email me, we make it very visible. And sometimes they have a great idea. And then two months later that's in the phone, you know, like their idea for a short cut or something. And I think like that's really exciting. They feel listened to and heard and like, we do really listen to them.

Clara

I guess just to go back. And this is maybe somewhat of like an existential question, like you mentioned, celebrities and other people reaching out about the phone and sort of positioning it almost in this luxury conversation. And I think that, to me has been an interesting part to come out of the dumb phone, dumb tech conversation more broadly, as I think people kind of starting to maybe just on a personal level, reframe their relationship to phone to their phone, or like their relationship to technology in this sort of like luxury reified way of like, it's a luxury to be able to spend two weeks away from it, or it's a luxury to be able to, you know, ditch social media for a moment and not feel like you have to have this crutch like that. The social media effect has almost been cheapening both on culture and also just on our own personal senses of like our own agency and our own time. And I'm curious, like, if that's something that you and Kai have discussed, or if it's something that you've heard from any of those clients in terms of how they're thinking about the product, but then also just like, in this larger dumb phone conversation with competitors, or just with light phone in general, if you're starting to see anything interesting there from that standpoint.

Joe Hollier

Yeah, I mean, it's tricky, because on one hand, we're not trying to make this a luxury product.

Clara

Yeah not the price point.

Joe Hollier

Yeah, price point and accessibility. But I do think there is a privilege in being able to go light. I know one lesson I learned, like, pretty early on was Kai and I and one of our advisors met some homeless kids near McDonald's in East Village, and we were chatting with them and like, you know, they're talking about how they want to get a job, but they can't without a cell phone number. And Kai and I were like, we make cell phones or we're about to maybe we can, you know, donate a phone for every phone bought and like, give these homeless kids a simple cell phone. But actually, when we like, researched into it more and chatted with these kids, like, they would have been much better off with a smartphone, because they had no internet, they didn't have access to computers, like I did every day. And they didn't need to, like get away from the noise, they actually needed, like, a level up. And so like to even have so much tech that you're trying to bring it back is, you know, weird luxury. And I think when you think of like luxury products, like you know, when Chanel makes a bag, they're not putting like a solar panel on it. And for extra clips and five extra pockets, it's like, we're going to make the most minimal, beautiful bag. And so I think there's like a minimal-nis luxury kind of overlap, that like we do try to embody, like everything that we do include is going to be hopefully really thoughtful and have like a real purpose and not just like adding features and things for the sake of like, we have more features.

Trey

I want to know how much time this takes. Because I know, having a small business can't be easy. I just kind of find there's like an interesting dichotomy and inventing a device that like, technically frees you up and gives you more time to pursue creative things. But I can't imagine you're not busy.

Joe Hollier

Yeah, it's definitely ironic that I spend more time on email, since starting a light phone. And you know, that was kind of my idea to get away from email. But I would say, as a company, our kind of, like, team mentality is definitely to seriously respect each other's offline time. And, you know, I think a lot of startups are just like, grind, grind, grind, grind, and we don't really embody that. And, you know, probably, to some degree, our fault, because, you know, we're not maybe hitting every deadline we want and things are going slower, but it's a more human pace. And I think, you know, we've had really great employee retention. And I think, you know, we practice what we preach, when I close my email, I set this boundary, and you know, the team knows, they can call and text me if they need, but every other email, like I can see it in the morning when I check again. So a lot of, you know, practicing what we preach in that regard, and, you know, sometimes are busier than others, but we try to, you know, live our lives still.

Trey

Absolutely. So there's no pressure I guess, to be like, profitable from some VC company, or?

Joe Hollier

Fortunately, all of our investors definitely, you know, obviously, they invest hoping that we don't just financially flop, but there's definitely a moral angle to their investment. And they trust Kai and I then you know, an investor, they say, invest in the founders. So we don't really have people poking us. But, you know, reality pokes us every single month with this bill, and that bill and all these other bills, so there's definitely pressure. And I just think it's a balancing act, you know, between Kai and I, and like, you know seeing, okay, we need to sell more phones, but we don't want to just like start being so overly hungry that we like, lose our brand equity that we built by being this kind of like confident thing that we're here if you want us and not like this needy, like, please, please, please by the light phone because like, that's just never gonna work for us.

Trey

Buy the upgrade.

Joe Hollier

But yeah, there was months. You know, right now we're going through a supply chain issue. And it's like, money is getting really tight. It's hard to sell phones when you don't have phones in stock.

Trey

What's what's going on? Is that a Ukraine thing, what is it?

Joe Hollier

So a lot of things, but it's mostly that being a super, super, super small player, you get the least attention across the board. So if there's any shortage of chips, or paint, or delays or you know, Apple or Samsung, come in, and they say, Oh, we're gonna need this and the suppliers like, Okay, we'll get to light phone in three months, like, three months? But you know, we're ordering the minimum quantity. So we get treated that way. And I think that's just a hurdle. Any small hardware team is face faces.

Clara

I guess like, I know, we're almost out of time. But to close it out, if there, if any listeners of this podcast are like interested in logging off from their phone a bit more slash, like potentially getting a light phone, like what is the arc to knowing that you're kind of in a position to want one that you'd mentioned earlier? Like, you have everything figured out? Like, when am I ready to get a light phone? Like how do you use the light phone or like toggle between that and your other devices? And like, I don't know, what would your advice be, I guess, in terms of like, the way to go about it?

Joe Hollier

Yeah, I mean, there's not really a one size fits all answer, but I definitely think there's steps you can start taking to just kind of explore what it might be like cuz I think everyone probably knows what their few most, quote unquote problematic apps are. And you can start by removing those and seeing how your phone interacts. Unfortunately, we have also done a lot of tests with that where people maybe for three days, delete Instagram, super low screen time, and now they're shopping. And now the screen times right back up, because the smartphone itself is just so shiny. And when you're bored after work on your couch, you just pull it out, hoping to find something and you can find infinite things. But I think even just the leadings those, like few ones that you know, you find yourself unconsciously opening will make a huge difference. And also, just like leaving your phone at home for a half hour, you know, like taking a walk and you'll feel naked is how people describe it. You know, you really feel different, even though no one knows that you don't have a phone on you. You walk around, you're like, Oh my god. So you know, that's just a really fun, kind of eye opening thing to realize how short of codependent and I think when you do that, you're going to really look around and see everyone else glued to their phone, and you kind of feel like you're on a different level, I think to kind of get more tangible, like, people do use the light phone as like a secondary device. And people will keep their old, you know, iPhones, maybe with no SIM card and like the light phone has a hotspot. So if you're really nervous, you might need some things, you can leave it in your backpack. And if God forbid, you needed something on the internet, you could hotspot or, you know, for me, I really just use a laptop and a light phone primarily. But a lot of users get like little tablets, that, you know, they can still pull it out and from a cafe sends them emails, but they're not going to pull out the tablet in line at the grocery store. And it kind of adds one level of friction, but not like a full blown jump. And I would just say like, yeah, you can always like sell the light phone, if you try a lot of our users I've been interviewing or just kind of like, try it, it can't hurt. So I guess that's just passing that on from them. But I understand, you know, putting up the money and committing to it seems really scary. There's a million what ifs. But each of them I've seen the opposite happen, you know, a mom that was afraid to have no camera finds that that's actually her favorite feature, lack of feature because now she's not feeling the responsibility to document every single move her two year old makes and share it with the entire family. And she says actually, come see my kid, you know, don't just ask me to send a photo that's not getting to know my kid. So, you know, like that, or someone who was afraid before we had directions that like oh my god, I'm gonna and then you realize like, oh wow, I'm gaining my sense of navigation back I'm noticing landmarks I'm learning the streets in my city and actually feeling self empowered because of it. So I just say like, some of the things that are maybe your like deal breakers might be the thing that actually is your favorite thing about going live, whether that's a light phone or some old flip phone or, you know, stripping down your iPhone significantly to some degree. I think there's kind of a spectrum of things.

Eli

This is so fascinating. Joe, thank you so much for taking the time today. I really appreciate it. Yeah, awesome stuff. Looking forward to seeing what you have on the horizon too.

Joe Hollier

My pleasure.