Eli

Today on the pod, we have Archie Lee Coates the Fourth. He is a co-founder of PlayLab, which is a multidisciplinary design, architecture, creative studio. They're celebrating almost their 20th year in operation. We've done some work with them as an agency. They've done some work with a range of clients, Post Malone, Virgil Abloh, American Express.

Clara

Reese Cooper.

Eli

Reese Cooper, Nike. Thank you. You have it up on your computer I imagine so.

Clara

Yeah it's all right here. Bottega, Veneta, Louis Vuitton.

Eli

My computer is being used for the recording. I did clock the other ones up here. In my mind.

Clara

I'm sure you did. Easy to say, hard to do.

Eli

Wow. Starting off hot. Thank you. Among one of their early projects that we didn't actually get a chance to ask Archie about is the Plus Pool, which is the plan to essentially create a floating pool in the East River in the shape of a plus filter, using the water from the East River.

Clara

Filtered.

Eli

Filtered, obviously, and I want to say that that might be coming to the city like soon, but it's been in the ideation process for years, if not a decade. Also, one of the first meetings I ever took at Day One was a Plus Pool meeting. I still have it in my notebook.

Clara

Really?

Eli

Not the same notebook I've been using, but like an early notebook.

Clara

Wow.

Eli

And I've told you this, I actually have swam in the Hudson River before.

Clara

You, jumped in off a canoe.

Eli

That's why I am the way I am now.

Clara

Brain worms and all. That's what makes him ours here at Day One FM.

Eli

No but, I mean, it's a, it was a fascinating discussion, I think wide ranging, as most are on Day One FM in that it talks through the process. I think more so the process than the outcome, which, seeing as his studio is so kind of like wide ranging, I thought was pretty interesting.

Clara

I agree. Well, I think, I think with PlayLab in particular, like their work, not like I don't want to say that it speaks for itself, but I do think that, like we focused a lot on the creative process in this conversation, just because, I think the fact that their work is so unique is because of the sort of unique structure and like ethos of their company, which Archie gets into a bit, but kind of the interdisciplinary-ness and the openness to take on kind of a wide host of projects with this sort of very tight knit team drawing on a lot of different creative disciplines. And so, I think it was, I agree, I think it was really interesting to learn a little bit more about that. What he has in common with Ernest Shackleton.

Eli

I know that's two that's 2x on the pod, he's also potentially coming out with a studio album, which I will be eagerly anticipating.

Clara

Lots of cool stuff.

Eli

Last thing definitely don't ever jump in or swim in the Hudson or damn well, not the East River either.

Clara

Unless it's in the filtered Plus Pool.

Eli

Unless it's in the filtered plus pool. Anyway, let's bring in Archie. Archie welcome to the pod. Thanks for joining us, in your also hermetically sealed cave over in LA.

Archie Lee Coates IV

No thank you so much for having me.

Eli

Yeah, appreciate it. The first question I had off the bat, where does the phone number on your guy's website go to? Is that your personal phone or just kind of, you know right there. He's got millions of texts.

Archie Lee Coates IV

I blame our really close friend and first ever staff member at PlayLab, Jonathan O'Brien, for when he was the first member we ever hired, and he somehow connected my phone to that number, and I don't know how to remove it.

Eli

That's a little scary. I feel like there's some security implications involved.

Archie Lee Coates IV

I get a lot of spam. A lot of people do reach out.

Eli

Yeah, those pesky, pesky first, first employees, you know, got to keep an eye on them.

Archie Lee Coates IV

No, he's the absolute best. He probably he's known, he's actually known for pranks. So, I wouldn't be surprised if this is, like, the long, one of the longest running pranks.

Eli

Really, any other good ones that you want to share? Or you know, do those just go down in lore?

Archie Lee Coates IV

Our good friend Rachel Jaeger, put together a book of pranks that there's like they crowdsourced them from dozens of his friends. It's the most insane book. I don't even remember all the pranks, but...

Eli

I feel like, and we'll get to, you know, the meat of the conversation here. But just while we're on the subject.

Archie Lee Coates IV

We're in the meat.

Eli

I know we are in the meat. We are in the meat. I feel like...

Archie Lee Coates IV

It's not getting better.

Eli

I know I feel like pranks are a bit of like a lost art in some respects.

Clara

I was gonna say, yeah, underrated. I haven't had a prank pulled on me since probably, like, seventh grade, eighth grade. It's kind of a long time ago?

Archie Lee Coates IV

Yeah, it may happen today.

Eli

This whole thing has been a call to action, yeah, one long and winding way, some ruse. All right, cool. Let's get into it. So 20, years ago, ish, you found PlayLab. What is it? What prompted it? Let's just start there and go on a little journey.

Archie Lee Coates IV

Yeah, my partner, Jeff and I, we met in architecture school, and it was this kind of weird, exciting time where your brain is like forming, and you're learning about all these things, and you're meeting strange people that you never thought you'd be talking to. And we were just obsessed with the idea that we could make whatever we wanted in the world. And I think we just had enough naiveness that we thought maybe that was possible, looking at examples like Charles and Ray Eames or something like that. And yeah, we named it PlayLab. We literally went to a coffee shop and, like, named it. It wasn't like, we're gonna have a big studio. It was like, Let's do things under the name PlayLab. And we moved in together and started doing projects, and, yeah, just sort of blossomed. But it was sort of a friendship was born out of a little bit of irreverency, of sort of looking at what other people were making and questioning why we wouldn't be able to potentially do that in the future. And our architecture school was so... the focus of the school was around the development of concepts, and then design is something that sort of answers the call to the concept, as opposed to having stark disciplines. And so we were just too interested in graphic design and architecture and product design and everything in between and film, and wanted to be able to, in the future, be lucky enough to have an environment that could do all that. And so it just so happens that at 20 we're closer to that reality than I think we ever thought possible.

Eli

Yeah, back then, you weren't thinking about how you could track click rates at the office or anything along those lines.

Archie Lee Coates IV

No, no, no. We're not like, yeah, exactly.

Eli

I do have a tattoo of Charles Eames sitting in a chair, very small world.

Clara

Flashed up on screen.

Archie Lee Coates IV

You know, maybe towards the end. Yeah, cut to keynote.

Eli

Yeah, I we should work on a bit more interactive display on the pod. It's not a very engaging room in here. It's a bit gray vibes.

Archie Lee Coates IV

I love that the research department.

Eli

That's good. Clara can attest. It's pretty good. Shout out to the other Eli, my tattoo artist.

Clara

But I guess just to explore a little bit more of, like, the ethos of PlayLab, I know that in sort of past interviews, you and Jeff have discussed this, kind of like, no particular focus ethos, and you have sort of been able to take on sort of like a pretty wide range of projects, like set design, concept design, also like some digital work, but a lot in, sort of like the IRL space. I was wondering if you could just sort of start by, like, walking through, like, some of like, the notable projects, notable collaborators, and how PlayLab basically grew from this, like incubator of the two of you to basically, like a global creative studio.

Archie Lee Coates IV

It started as a personal practice, and it very much is still personal, even if there are two owners and 10 other amazing people working here. I think that, you asked about ethos, there's tons of different ideas floating around here, but the sort of common denominator between everything is, do we want to do it?

Clara

Not enough people are asking that question.

Archie Lee Coates IV

Yeah, and that makes it tough to run a company. It makes us tough to work with in that regard. But once you're working with us, the goal is heard to be enjoyable and not easy. But I think enjoyable. We're trying to test the limits of what is possible for ourselves to do and for our team to do. And so, Jeff and I, in particular, we have a lot of interest, and we have some things that we like more than others. I'm one of those people that am very thankful to work on anything, and I want to be able to attack whatever we're working on at the same level of fervor that I would anything else. So, no matter if it's a large scale, physical thing or a smaller thing or whatever, we have to just be in love with it. We have to, we have to really enjoy it. And part of that is, is the people and the relationship between people. And that's what this business really is because great, creative things do not happen in a vacuum, they don't happen alone, often, sometimes they do, but there's always somebody that is a part of a team that enables things to happen. And so, we're very conscious of that, and always have been. We focus on relationships and the quality of relationships and also, you know, as you get older and the studio gets larger, and it's about not focusing on the relationships that are maybe not so beneficial for you, and those are tough decisions as well. But at the end of the day, there are some there's so much work to go around. There are so many things that can be done that we're just one small studio in a sea of them. So, we're trying to be just us, and not really try to posture to what it may look like, or try to do a project, because we think we should be doing that project. We are a lot of it is absolutely no particular focus. We're so extremely multidisciplinary. Worked so long to get better at all of these disciplines that now, when somebody comes into the ecosystem because of a relationship, you know, we can go in almost any direction, whether it's product or branding or art direction or film or spatial or event or whatever. We don't really necessarily care about being known for anything. We care, if we care about being known for anything, it's about being PlayLab, and allowing that to be continually, I think, a question, not even mysterious, but a question. That's what PlayLab is to us, so that's the way it should be to everyone else.

Eli

Do you have like a favorite out of you know, your growing list of capes? You like to flex the architecture school muscle? Is it, you know, I like to learn new things from newer people who are joining the team, etc, or it kind of varies depending on the project.

Archie Lee Coates IV

Yeah, I mean, I think we're, we're at a beautiful spot right now across architecture, whether it's temporary or permanent, as well as working with musicians and artists across all of their things, whether it's record covers and packaging to the live show, and I think that Dylan and Anna who've been with us since, uh, five and six years, the longest running staff members we've ever had a PlayLab. We have a lot of internal projects, and the focus on the next 20 years is really about continuing to build what PlayLab would like to do, as opposed to showcase what we've done. And one of the things that they're doing is I have I wrote this album that I'm coming out with, and they took it on as like me as a client. So PlayLab is directing this packaging and the videos and all these things. And they made a presentation for me, I mean, that's just one to one, how we would make it for anybody else in that first concept, broke down in tears, I'm known to do that. And why it was so emotional for me was that I could see how other people, other clients, get to experience the level of care that everybody out here puts into the projects. Because, yeah, I studied, like 18 months of architecture and like 18 months of graphic design. It was like, all I've done is PlayLab. I worked at a job for 11 months outside of this. I've just done PlayLab my entire life. So, all of my knowledge is essentially coming from here. We started this thing. We're running this thing. We love to do it, but it's the skill sets of this team out here and the things that they're able to accomplish. And I think that what I'm excited about, you ask about flexing, is I'm I'm excited to see these guys grow every day. Like, that's what's so sick to me. Of course, I have projects that were enjoyable. It really is like, this is where we spend the majority of our time, is in the studio with each other. And so, when you have a win, which is every time a project launches, it's a, it's a really great feeling knowing whatever, what everybody did to accomplish.

Eli

It's interesting, it's like you've probably been in whatever, like, hundreds, if not 1000s of pitch meetings of like, deck flow throughout 20 years plus at PlayLab, kind of know the ropes, and then to take yourself out of it and be like, holy sh*t, this is actually what it what it's like. This is like a little bit of a transcend, like transcendental or transcendent, rather feeling. So that's interesting. And you're so you're also in the studio too. Is it, you don't have to share what genre of music it is, but are you strumming? Is it you're on the 808?

Archie Lee Coates IV

I work in Ableton Live, and it's a lot of sampling, a lot of lot of MIDI, and also live guitars, live drums, live bass. You know, I have a really incredible production partner, multiple production partners across multiple different projects, but this one album is this guy Dylan Bostick, He's just a genius, and we've had a lot of fun building this very specific sound.

Eli

Much like PlayLab, a little bit of no particular focus when it comes to the instrument or the music.

Archie Lee Coates IV

Yes, yeah, or the discipline or yeah, I mean, I'm a little bit, little bit of a psycho in that way.

Eli

That's okay.

Clara

I wanted to come back, I guess, to the team part that you were mentioning earlier. I think you said it's 12 people in total that are at PlayLab. And just talk a bit about, like, creative team, organization and structure, because I think it's maybe a little bit inside baseball, but I think that it's especially important now too, I feel like something we discuss a lot in sort of like a brand context, is that there's a lot of content out there that doesn't feel very meaningful. There's a lot of pressure to keep up with wherever the sort of tide seems to be moving. And I think something that sets PlayLab apart, to me at least, is just like the level of intentionality, but also the level of, sort of having this very individual perspective that's very grounded in, you know, some like, the core values of this kind of, like interdisciplinary art practice. And I think, like you mentioned, that all kind of comes back to the team that you're building. And so in looking for a team, is it kind of, like, this is a terrible and kind of corny analogy. But like, is it like an Oceans 12 style thing where you're, like, pulling in different people from different disciplines, and everyone's kind of bringing a different perspective? Is it more just like trying to find sick people from like, every discipline and kind of throwing them in a room? Like, what's the ethos, I guess, to you know, finding the right people for PlayLab?

Archie Lee Coates IV

That's a great question, and it's so difficult, and it's something that has been evolving every month, every week since the beginning. In the past few years, it started to shape, and we're starting to get into a rhythm. But nobody here, including ourselves, would tell you that it's perfect or close to I think that we are having conversations about this every day. I have a meeting at 3:30pm internally for an hour with our ops team to talk through this week's issues and learnings. But because we're so multidisciplinary, it makes it very hard to resource or forecast where we're going. We harvest our time, we track our time, we stay really, really close on how much availability people have. Try not to overwhelm them the best that we can. Obviously, it's creative stuff, right? So, it's sometimes you don't know how long things are necessarily going to take, but I think we hit it pretty well. The other thing is that you want we have directors and different levels of designers, and we have studio management and operations direction and really key roles for being as small as we are. But the number one thing that we look out for, yeah, we want sick people. We want people that are kind, empathetic, you know, clear, talented, but the number one goal at anybody at the studio is you grow. And that's another thing, is trying to identify growth paths for everybody and what that what that means. That was something that we really didn't even have until this year. People want to know where they're going to be and what their upward ascension looks like, that this can be a place for them, and that we're listening to them, right? So, spending a lot of time on that. But again, the number one goal is for the designer here to be multidisciplinary, to at least start with interests in multiple areas and understand that the roots of graphic design are conceptual thinking and strategy, and those same thoughts can be applied to this physical thing over here. Part of Jeff's in my job, in addition to leading creative and our directorial staff on projects, is to continually push the studio and the things that are taking the studio's time or coming into the studio's ecosystem, pushing the studio where it can be, and connecting the dots between these things that may have seemed disparate to somebody else, but to us, we have not yet done it, And we want to try it, which includes product design and filmmaking. So those are areas that we're focused on. There's a percentage of time that's being spent out there right now on the development of actual products, in collaboration with other companies and brands, understanding the long lead time. I mean, architecture sometimes is faster than product development. It's an incredible learning lesson, and you're talking about this small scale and massive runs of production of these things and so, yeah, we're questioning, prodding, pushing every day. So, it's a never, it's never a quite settled environment, definitely not for Jeff and I, but we need, we want people that want that.

Eli

Yeah, it's interesting, because I think people feel very differently about this, where it's like some people really like very segmented, clear roles, responsibilities, you know, career ladders. And then other people, I think, are a bit more okay and amenable to, not like going with the flow, being like, f*ck it, we'll just figure it out and like, whatever happens over here, I'll take that learning, you know, for the next role. And I think that that probably applies to a bunch of different disciplines, whether, certainly in a creative field.

Archie Lee Coates IV

They all work, yeah, yeah, they all work for someone. I think we will never have it figured out. I don't think here and the word that we keep using internally, or I definitely have been using it, is better and trying to understand what better means as people, as communicators, designers, sure, but it's, it's, how do we become better? And how can we look at ourselves and ask those tough questions for how we can be better at all these things? And our goal, I think, too, is like, not just for the work to be amazing and for the process to be amazing, but inevitably, when people leave this place, which they will do, and that sucks and is sad and they have and for them to be better designers and better people when they leave this place, that would be the goal, you know. And that they, can have an amazing career outside of PlayLab, because it, it isn't and cannot be just about PlayLab, but at PlayLab, it is about PlayLab, right? So, I just see it more as you know, there are some ideals, there are some ethos. There's definitely a track record. Other than that, the future is wide open here, right? Anything can happen. There's so much possibility. Part of that's, you know, my job, but it's a definitely shared job amongst everybody here to kind of push what's possible. And that's even, when somebody comes in, client or whatever, and they're we want to do this sort of thing, the first phase of any project is kind of blowing up the task.

Clara

I was gonna ask just out of curiosity. Like, when you do, when you are approached by a client or a brand and like, let's say this is something that you are excited about. Like, is the nature of what they're asking you to do is basically, like, kind of an open brief of, like, here you are, or is it something that's like, maybe slightly more limited, that you're then sort of exploding in a positive way?

Archie Lee Coates IV

No, yeah, exploding is a good thing for us. Good. That's part of our we call it, yeah, blowing it up. It's like, the process is like, you look at it, and you kind of extrude all these different things from it, and then you zero into the things that feel the most interesting, and then you blow those over and see what's in there. They're like little gifts every time. And some clients, you know, you know, we're retained by several clients where it is just ongoing. It's sort of continuing to prod and question smaller briefs or bigger strategies or things that we want to cast way over there and see if we can place a bet on that thing there. Sometimes, when they're just a project scope, somebody comes to us and they're like, here are our goals. And then we analyze those goals and say, but have you thought about this? Okay, what sort of budgets are in play, and where are they coming from, and what are our timelines? And all this stuff. And then all of a sudden, of a sudden we start proposing ideas. You know, the first phase, the first phase of almost any clay lab scope, is what we call possibilities. Sometimes it's a standalone scope, and it's a way to test the waters of the relationship. Because we are so specific and speak such a specific language that you know you need the person on the other end to get it.

Clara

Yeah, well, I was gonna ask, kind of like, how, how you go about, sort of like, building that trust and that ability to push back and kind of revise maybe the original ask into something that's either sharper or like is more clearly honed to what would be like, truly impactful. Because I think, like, and I know we're getting super into the weeds of like, creative process, but I do think it's really interesting.

Archie Lee Coates IV

No, this is it.

Clara

I think you guys do have, like, kind of a unique approach. So sorry, yes, that's my question.

Archie Lee Coates IV

Thank you. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's different for everyone, but the building of trust is a very strange job, and it is one of the most important things that we do, because we own this company. It's like, we take it home with us, right? It's like, I'm laying in bed and I'm thinking, my mind is going so fast all the time. I have never been able to put this backpack down. I've got a little bit better at running with the backpack, but I can't put it I can't put it down. And one of the things that I can't put down is this, this idea of failure, or if I failed them, the client, or in any way, did I lie? Did I lead them astray? Did I present something that wasn't possible? And that's what we're trying to consistently get better at, is we want to make things that whether or not they're for ourselves or for the client, in collaboration with a client, we want to make other people be like, that's really that's it. And so we have, we have to feel that way. The client has to feel that way. They have to understand why this thing came to be, which allows them to talk about it in a very specific way. But yeah, that that trust is, that's the drug. And, you know, let's say it's an event. There was some installation component, and that one person said this one thing, and the CMO is like, wants to, like, shake you out of gratitude and love, like, that's, it's just the unexplainable feeling. And sometimes it's like, we have clients that have never done anything that, like PlayLab would propose to them, and then they do it, and then they're like, then they're, they're addicted to it, yeah, you know? And have this feeling of, like, man, that was fun, we learned something through the process, and we created something that meant something for someone else, and that it just never ceases to be fun, right? But it's really hard. It's like a hard it's a hard life. And again, it's not that we're necessarily really great at it. We just really care about it. And then when you when you're using that same process on yourselves and trying to question and build the opportunity for something that you can create that nobody's asking you to create, you realize that everything else was just kind of practice, and then this ­­­­­thing informs that thing. And then, you know, I don't know who's going to call that phone number to your point at the top of the call, like. Like, every day. I mean, I'm surprised when somebody emails or calls, I mean, every single day, and then you're like, okay, I mean, I know how long relationships take. Sometimes it's three months, sometimes it's six months. Like there may be a product scope 12 months down the line, I don't know. So, the number one thing is, I got to spend time with people, and I have to be extremely upfront and honest and wear it on my sleeve, who I am and what the studio is and the people are, and what we care about. And if you like that awesome, if you don't awesome, you know, hopefully we can be friends. So that's our perspective. That's how we sort of operate this thing. It's how we always have. It's what the relationship between Jeff and I is like, it's very honest, it's very transparent, it's communicative, it's exploratory, it's a fine tooth comb. It's all of it, you know?

Clara

Well, I mean, I think that makes sense. And, like, I would say, and not to put words in your mouth, but like, that's kind of what doing something very cool and creative takes, is kind of like what you're saying, like the risk of failure is, like, it does take a big swing on some level, like you have to be maybe, like, a little bit out of your depth or a little bit out of the comfort zone, and I think, and I don't know necessarily why this is, and I haven't, to be fair, been working long enough to maybe make this claim. But like, it does feel like, with all of the data and things that brands now have to, like, either shore up an idea, or say an idea is not the right thing. It's like, there does seem to be, like, a reticence, almost sometimes, to say, like, should we just actually do something that's like, really sick, rather than sort of trying to belabor it with sort of a lot of background information and a lot of background data. And I'm, I'm curious, kind of what your POV is visa vie like that side of the brand world, not necessarily like the brand creative, but more like the brand strategy. Like, how do PlayLab projects fit into that? And then what part of that is also like a project that's actually challenging, whatever the strategy is to the extent that's informing the brief? Does that make sense?

Archie Lee Coates IV

Very much. Yeah. It's a very good question. One of our biggest issues here is how we define strategy.

Eli

Same.

Archie Lee Coates IV

Right? I'm sure, like my wife, is creative director, she's worked at, God knows how many agencies. All have a similar rhetoric, but different and different approaches, whatever, all I know is from what I've experienced and the amount of decks I've received from other people, is that, like whatever PlayLab, like however we're approaching, it is different, and it's not it's not metric driven, it's not data driven. We asked for all those, those docs up front on intake. We review all information. I think it we were taught in architecture school that the process of design often is taking in all this information, and then your role is to decide what's productive for that process or not. But you have to pass it all through the filter. Sometimes it gets called up in the strangest ways, but, but the way we operate, the way that we believe in making things here, is that this is a very privileged job, first and foremost, right? Any amount of this sort of career that's privilege, and we're aware of it, but we love it. This is why I'm alive. This is why I exist. I really enjoy it, but it's a human thing. It's a quintessential human thing. So, it's an emotional, spiritual thing, and sometimes you just can't make sense it. The goal isn't to make sense of something. That's when things get beaten to death. Yeah, and, and we believe that pretty strongly. And it's not it's even brands that are like using words that like, I want to make a splash. There are so many different ways to describe it. It's not offensive to us because we understand exactly what they want. We're always trying to identify the partner that can look past that veil into a deeper place, right? So, we're having conversations with the top with the C suite around what the actual budgets are, what the actual goals are, and nobody wants to be a one hit wonder. So, it's not about creating one thing, it's about a strategy and showing up and proving against those things. And it's not, it's just never going to come from something that you're seeing, that you're repeating. That's not, that's not the goal. It can't be the goal. And so that's what makes us this work, often. I'm not saying everything we're doing is novel or something, it's like, it's for us, it just feels good. We're waiting for that reaction internally that we're like, literally screaming in the room. Like, that's f*cking it. That's it. Now, how do we go get that thing across the line? And then that is like, when we stand up on our arms, and then that's this dichotomy between me and Jeff, where it's like, once that thing is, like, reached and you're like, okay, I got it, Jeff will zero in and not rest until the quality of that thing is at the level of the idea. And that is this, this magic of the studio's thought process, process, team, structure and energy. And then yeah, not making a decision or moving forward until you absolutely feel that you're like, that's so sick. And if it can be done like this, and then we fight for it, and that's where the trust you have to rely on the trust of the client, because then sometimes they get a little afraid, or they're getting pressure on one end from somebody that, like, wasn't a part of emails or calls and chimed in at the last minute, because they're looking at a deck in between a meeting, and then they say something that could blow it all up. And then this happened. I mean, it just everybody experiences it, so we have just experienced it in a multitude of different ways. And the art form is often that. It's the structure and the communication process with these teams, and we talk endlessly about that here, right? Which is why production partners are incredibly important. Every bit of it, every bit of some of the best work we ever done, it's not necessarily because of us, it's because of the teams on that side that believed.

Eli

Well, I mean, a lot of what you do, and a lot of what you will do, I feel like is, and it's a refreshing I think, because I've said this before, not that anyone's listening of like, I don't think the numbers, yes, the especially with the AirPod pro Max's great sound quality. I think that the numbers and the data and the statistics just do not capture are not illustrative, a lot of times of like, something that might be super interesting from like, a creative standpoint, sometimes, and don't capture anything that would be kind of like new, exciting, and make you say, like, holy sh*t. Because a lot of times what happens is, like, you'll be in a meeting, and I'm like, well, is there like, a statistic to back that up or something? And it's like, ah, I don't know. It obviously depends on what you're pitching in, but I feel like a lot of the more interesting novel, you know, the work that to your point is like, make people go, wow, you're not really going to find, it's not really going to be optimized for data or anything. That's just my quick spiel on data. I also think that strategy often is, like, overwrought, like it can be boiled down to, like a holy sh*t moment, which strategy can help you get there. But like, there's a lot in it now, especially, like the past four years, it's like we're doing way too much here. Like it's, it's not that deep, I don't know.

Archie Lee Coates IV

And some of those details, some of those metrics, are incredibly helpful, like, for sure, but often, I think that brands artists, everyone, sometimes they're just too close to it. And sometimes, sometimes they're not even thinking about the full picture. Like, think about an artist or a musician, right? It's like, I don't know how much you all work in music, but it is, it's an exciting time for music, but it's one of the worst eras for music in terms of how much content and how much music is being uploaded, and what artists have to do to get seen, heard and noticed.

Eli

Or paid.

Archie Lee Coates IV

Yeah, right, or making a living. I mean, it's, I'm a tennis player. I've been in my entire life. I think about this all the time, about, like, it's like the top 10, top 100, they're making a living. So, there's like the 1% they're doing really well. Everybody else fighting to be on that tour, the same tour that everybody else is on. And yeah, it's just, it's a difficult time for music. And so there's things that you know, labels really want to focus on, what's working, what they think they can bankably work on but that's not how culture moves. And so, music is emotional, it's an art form unless it's been baked. But the artists that we work with, they're, they're putting everything into it, right? And they a lot of it is about not alienating the current audience and being able to speak to them, but also just figuring out, like, what's the next audience, and trying to learn that and speak to them in ways that is just absolutely already happening and genuine in that artist's world, right? And, yeah, it's the same for any brand, but I like that, but that's not going to come from something that somebody, some other research firm, has told you.

Eli

No, the ANR often needs to see the data to back up that this, you know, musician is going to be the next hit or whatever, but A$AP, Rocky found Joe Fox or whatever on the street, and was like, hey, you could be a good feature in this song. Like, no statistics going to help you. That's obviously a small sample size.

Clara

This is a slight tangent, and Eli, don't be mad at me, but do you remember that it's like a Noel Gallagher clip or whatever, and he's like nobody wanted... Don't spit out your...

Eli

Not the Lacroix. Not the Pamplemousses Lacroix. I think Clara might actually be drinking the same one.

Clara

I know we might be matching.

Archie Lee Coates IV

This is tangerine.

Eli

Oh sh*t, not Pamplemousses. Well close enough.

Clara

But it is, it is a Noel Gallagher quote, but he's like, nobody wanted Jimi Hendrix, but they got Jimi Hendrix. Or, like, nobody wanted these artists, but they sort of got them anyway. But that there's, if you want to make something that's like, genuinely cool and creative, there's an extent to which you can't be too hung up on what it seems like people are looking for. And I think that that, going back to the data thing, is kind of what gets you into that tough situation, is like, you're looking at all this data that's telling you what people want, and it's like, well, do we want to give people what we want? Like, to your point earlier, of like, are we excited by this? Because if not, that's the problem. It's not even that. It doesn't match the data. But it's just like, there's nothing cool to do here, like, it's like, almost more simple even than the data aspect of it.

Archie Lee Coates IV

Yeah, totally. And once you're speaking the same language with somebody else and they want that thing, then you're like, oh my god, so much is possible, this is fun. You know, we just can't have the other conversation and we're getting a little bit better at filtering out that conversation and blessed to have any conversation, but we just know what kind of conversation we want to be having here, you know? And we're kind of, we're protecting that, because it also flows down everybody in there, yes, so if they're, if they're not feeling it, what are we doing?

Clara

Yeah, I know it's like, it's tough, because I feel like it's almost like one of those questions that doesn't get asked enough, in sort of, like, internal creative teams sometimes, like, are, do we like this at all? Like, like, if we did this event, or if we popped up in this way? Like, would you go? Like, would you invite your friends to go? Would you cancel your plans on Saturday to go? And, like, actually pressure testing it against your own interests. Because I think it's like, it's easy to get into this headspace of like, oh, we're making it for someone else, but it's like, ideally you would like what you're making too. But I think it's hard sometimes, in like a client situation, to balance those two things of like, we need to fulfill this need, or this ask, but at the same time, it should be something that people want to go to, including yourself.

Archie Lee Coates IV

Well, right and to that point, I think one of the best success strategies here, and granted, we are a small company, so we can do this, but is allowing the world to merge, right? If they merge and PlayLab’s, world is that world and vice versa? Yes, we're providing a service for a client, but it's like this is for our community too. It's for us, right? Like vans, OTW is a perfect example of that. It's like we're just merging those worlds together, and there are so many worlds being merged together, and those adjacencies and, um, all ships sort of rise mentality is what vans was founded on. But that's what good, any good cultural moment feels like, is, man, like, I can't believe you did that, and I didn't expect to see that person there. And but then for us, it's like, we want that thing, you know? So, it's down to OTW. It's like, not even just designing some architectural thing that photographs well, but it's like that speaks well to the skaters have never skated something like that, and musicians have never performed in an environment like that. But also, them asking our opinion on what the artist should be, and valuing that and making sure that a hefty amount of our friend network can be there. You know, it's not like, okay, we get to go, but we don't get list spots for everyone. It's like, we're showing up in droves as a family. And the best of those, Virgil, obviously, was that that was, that was the entire thing, was that and learn that great fleet through, you know, the best to ever do it. But I think that's, that's how we believed, even big brands like Nike can move that way, and they have to do it in smaller scales and smaller gestures, but they can move that way, and people want that. They really do.

Eli

Speaking of a small team, I feel like one of the one of the blessings of that is it's fairly I mean, I'm sure there are probably some subtle differences, but if it's probably easier for everyone to feel like they're on the same page as far as taste, as far as creative outlook, things of that nature, and I'm sure some, you know, some creative could be improved by other kind of butting heads and figuring it out like that. But is there kind of like a hiring filter sounds so boring and like HR, but like, what do you what's, what's kind of like the taste test, like someone comes in and is it like the Charles Eames reference that they make? Or, like, you know what I mean, what is, and it probably varies based off what they're doing graphic design or strategy, etc. But like, what do you think is a like the PlayLab employee playbook, or is it an ever-evolving thing? It's like, you know it when you see it, type of thing.

Archie Lee Coates IV

I mean, yeah, it's definitely the latter. I mean, it's a very difficult process for us. It's a lot of hours, because we spend a lot of time talking with people, and it really is a lot. I hate to say that, but Jeff says it all the time. It's like, we're going to spend a lot of time together. Yeah, is this environment for you? Do we want to be around you? Do you want to be around us? This is not a bad question to ask, so that's primarily what we're asking. Walking us through the work that helps illuminate the thought process and the level of involvement, right? Because so many people submit things that, like they're playing up their role or whatever. And so, like, no, like, meticulously, where did you fit in here? And the more truth we know, the better, because then it's sort of like, I don't care, actually, I want to know that you're able to do X, Y and Z, even if you, I'm because I can discern whether or not you're able to kind of rise to that occasion, right? And then if all the other pieces around energy and personality and, yeah, reference points, sure, but it's like, those are nice little surprise easter eggs. It's sort of like, and you can tell in a conversation if you're like, wow, okay, this is. And often too, like, you meet a lot of people that are just like you, and you actually just want somebody that's not like you, because not like you, because you need a diversity of perspective, and that's an amazingly healthy and important thing. So, it's just a lot of time, it's a lot of time speaking to people and yeah, yeah, no, no, filters necessarily.

Eli

No, the vibe is important. Clara and I both read or are reading this book called Endurance, which is about the Shackleton voyage, if you've heard of it.

Archie Lee Coates IV

I've read it.

Eli

Yeah, it's great book, talks about how he goes about how he vibe checks the sailors.

Clara

He vibe checks the sailors.

Eli

He's like, f*ck it. You can pull up to the to the Endurance. It worked out well, ultimately, but I know you didn't have that one on your bingo card.

Clara

Covering a lot of ground today.

Eli

Just like, they did across the Drake Sea

Clara

I know the, whatever it is, the Wendell.

Eli

South Georgia. All right, we're on to our last segment here. It's kind of a, wow. Very cute.

Clara

Oh my gosh.

Eli

Who's that? Shackleton?

Archie Lee Coates IV

Violet.

Clara

Aw Violet, welcome to the podcast.

Eli

This might be our first dog on the pod. Very exciting. All right, cool. So, there's a series of kind of quick hit questions for you. The first one is offline-ish recommendation, and this could be a restaurant, an album, a book, i.e. Endurance. What do you got for us?

Archie Lee Coates IV

If you're in LA I'd hit Bacetti, Jeff's wife works there. If you're in New York, my friend Gabe Stulman's restaurant, Joseph Leonard, it's a gem. They're celebrating 15 years this year.

Eli

Nice.

Archie Lee Coates IV

And then starting two weeks from today, our friend Andrew Tarlow opens his first Manhattan restaurant it's called Borgo. That is going to be absolutely phenomenal. I've been going to Diner my entire adult life.

Clara

Love Diner.

Archie Lee Coates IV

I basically grew up in Diner and Marlow and Sons. They did my wife's and my wedding, and they've just been great friends for such a long time. But, yeah, big move, they're in Manhattan, Borgo.

Eli

Cool. Social niche, or account that we should all tap into? It could be a weird reel or something. You know, it's an open brief.

Archie Lee Coates IV

Thankfully, I'm not the one.

Eli

All right, we can go to the next one. What's your screen time like?

Archie Lee Coates IV

Like, 100%.

Eli

All right, fair.

Archie Lee Coates IV

24 hours a day. I am, I am a walking meme in this studio. My phone does not leave my hand.

Eli

We've had, we've had a range of responses on the pod. Many people, more people than I thought, have been very unapologetic about their screen time, which I actually respect, because I think we're all anticipating a certain answer. Ah, it's too much. I really, I'm really trying to get off, but a lot of people be like, Yeah, I'm on there a lot.

Archie Lee Coates IV

I am on there. And then when I'm not on there, I'm just, you know, in Ableton Live, which is a whole other screen time situation.

Eli

And you will have to keep us posted on the album, friends and family. No ops, all right, hottest take you've got?

Archie Lee Coates IV

Hottest take, I've got.

Eli

Or lukewarm, you know, it doesn't need to be searing.

Archie Lee Coates IV

No hots good, hots, good. Um, well, I had Chipotle for lunch today, and everybody f*cks with a soft taco. But I got, I got hard, hard shell today just to kind of like, f*ck with the universe and see what happened. And it was a topic of conversation at the studio lunch today. And they, they go hard. No pun intended.

Clara

Wow, hard tacos at Chipotle.

Eli

It's rare.

Clara

I've actually never had one. Good tip.

Eli

No, because I think people worry about the structural integrity, obviously, of a taco.

Clara

Obviously, everyone's thinking about the structural integrity.

Archie Lee Coates IV

It gets soggy too, when you know it's sort of not, it's not really necessarily an authentic dish, but it's fantastic.

Eli

Yeah, all right. Last one, internet crimes, or internet crimes you'd prosecute or gripes that you have. This could be a text heavy Instagram story, linked influencing, just to name a few.

Archie Lee Coates IV

I tried to, actually, this is my screen time answer. But I tried, I try very hard to not care, and I try very hard to be devoid of the gripe, because it's like, if I'm on the thing and then I'm annoyed by something that I've willed myself into a position to be like, casually seeing on the internet, it's like, not their fault. Yeah, it's my fault. So, and then the other thing is, like, I think about this all the time because, yeah, this thing is, like, such a trap. And there are multiple truths at once. And there's nuance everywhere, but it doesn't allow for much nuance, you know. And so, my gripe is only with myself, which is like, yeah, give myself and others a lot more grace than maybe, I did in the past.

Eli

It's a great, that's a great answer. I allow myself to get so upset sometimes.

Clara

I know.

Eli

It's not healthy.

Archie Lee Coates IV

I've been there.

Clara

Maybe some words of wisdom.

Archie Lee Coates IV

No, I've seen it go the other way for people, and I just, it's not it's not interesting.

Clara

Just no way to live. You know, being angry about the Hawk Tuah girl.

Archie Lee Coates IV

Right. Definitely 100%

Eli

Cool. Well, Archie, thank you so much for taking the time. Really appreciate it. We know you're busy, busy guy with a studio to get to, clicks to track, texts to get back from the site. So, thank you so much. Yeah. Hope you had a good time on the pod.

Archie Lee Coates IV

I did. Thank you all so much.