Eli

Day One FM, we're going to keep things short and sweet. And the upfront here just myself and Clara on the pod today. Trey is across the pond. But I know big shoes to fill but we do have a very special guest on. Dave Chang. You may know him from restaurants like Momofuku, Majordomo. He is an author. He's a podcaster. He is a media mainstay a culinary mainstay, and he was generous enough to give us all of his time and let us pick his brain about future of food, future of media where Gen Z fits into all of that. Yeah, I was stoked to get him on the pod. It was a good conversation.

Clara

Yeah, it was really interesting. And I think it's also kind of a good, I don't know, kind of culmination of a lot of the work we've been doing with him and with Majordomo Media for the past month or so. We just hosted our future food, Ask Gen Z dinner with them. In LA. It went really well. Lots of really cool guests. And we also hosted a panel with Justin have Anajak Thai, which just won a James Beard Award. So he was able to provide some interesting perspective too, if you tune in on Day One social. But yeah, I think the conversation with Dave, I got to ask my my most burning question about menus with pictures. But additional to that, I think just thinking about how food is one of those like last kind of analog spaces where people kind of have to gather IRL. And of course, there are sort of other dimensions to that. And we get into a lot of how food is currently living on social but like, the actual sort of the food of it all still needs to be the actual I know, it was like, Is there a good time, but I was not quick enough. But yeah, it's kind of one of those things that you still really need to be like present for quite literally and like cooking is something you have to be present for. So I think he brought a lot of interesting perspective to that as well.

Eli

Let's get into it. Dave Chang, welcome to the pod.

David Chang

Honored to be here. Thanks for having me.

Eli

Absolutely. Well, to kick things off, I usually like to start all my conversations with a gripe, which is a great way to earn friends. But I was listening to the most recent pod Dave Chang show that you did. It was a conversation on still, tap or sparkling water. And I just wanted to say that I share this grievance. And I feel like it is not talked about enough about how there's often still water is often substituted for tab or vice versa. But it's a sneaky swap. And I just want to say thank you for bringing that to our attention.

David Chang

No problem. I'm sure I've been guilty of it.

Eli

I know you're doing God's work. I also just separately on the gas station draft there honestly sounds nothing better than paying $7 a gallon drinking a XL coke and, you know, engaging in some tobacco activities at some point in driving down the highway. So again, that was a great, listen, I appreciate it.

David Chang

I'm glad you enjoy that as well.

Eli

Well, once again, welcome to Day One FM gas station snacks aside, we are stoked to have you here.

Clara

Yeah. And you know, not the most, you know, logical segue maybe to zoom from there into the restaurant world but did want to start there just because I'm sure that that's where a lot of our listeners know you from across Majordomo, Momofuku, where me and Eli actually recently ate. But we wanted to get your take kind of on the current landscape, we've been seeing just some crazy headlines on our side, you know, whether it's about like Tik Tok's grip over restaurant menus, or you know, the dining on vibes article from Grub Street, about how more and more restaurants are launching kind of on vibes alone without really like a major name chef backing them. The rise of caviar is sort of like a hot menu staple. Eric Adams, to list one last one recently created sort of, like more permanent state for outdoor dining. But with all of this kind of like swirling around and us sort of having been, you know, in this industry for a really long time, you know, does it seem like we're in as transformational a period as some of these headlines seem to be making it out to be sort of like, coming out of COVID coming into this like, very, like Tik Tok dominated it seems sometimes social landscape. You know, what of these trends seem like important to you, if any, and you know, if none of them, you know, like where's your head at these days in terms of like, what's new and next with the restaurant world, which I know is a huge question. Kick things off light, you know, kick them off light.

David Chang

It is a huge question. Well, I would say that a lot of the analysis of late In media, honestly, is several months too late, almost a couple of years too late. This has been discussed quite a bit amongst the culinary community for some time. And there's a lot of reasons as to why things have changed. We'll explain that change in a second. But like most things in culture, you alluded to Tik Tok I wouldn't just say it's Tik Tok, I would say, like anything that is novel and new in culture today, it's expedited exponentially because of technology and because of social media because of mobile devices. So for a long time cooking, and the trends and cooking were always probably like 10 years, five to 10 years behind most other facets and pockets and culture. And if you look at what's happened in literature, and music, and fashion, I felt it was really a close approximation to some of the trends in food. If you look at basically all across any creative endeavor, that is, you know, goods are being sold to some degree or ideas or songs are being sold. Everything's in upheaval. And it's the first time ever that everyone's in the state of chaos, almost.

Eli

I wake up, and it's chaos. Yes.

David Chang

It's hard now to sort of look at other places and get some or glean some insight as to what is happening. And a lot of that is because of I mean, I like to say the word commodification. Some people like to use democratization, I don't know if that personally is the right word, I think that something becomes a commodity when it's something you need, on the base level, right? Just for some, like just existence, right? And you're getting taxed for it, right, whether it's your electricity, you know, basic cable, it seemed like that. And food is something you need, but a lot of the things that were on the ends of the spectrum, right, high end dining, etc. That had I hate sounding like a, I hate using some of these terms, but there was always information asymmetry there. You could do things and move quickly enough before anyone else caught on. There was a lag time, right? I could think about in the 1990s, when you had that really the second generation of American chefs that were going to Europe to learn how to cook, but they weren't going to the Overgaard. As to some of those restaurants like a restaurant, Taillevent, which is this classic old style French restaurant. That's where a lot of people would go. But the next generation, they were going to places like Pierre Gagnaire and Alain Passard and Michelle Brar. The cooks that went to Europe at these restaurants that were at the cutting edge became sort of big time chefs here because they had a huge information, advantage, technique wise knowledge wise, over anyone else. Right. Very few people had that I myself had that advantage. When I worked in Asia, in Japan, I happened to do something that was not very cool, but no one else knew anything about it. And I mean that it was..

Eli

Like that is cool, you know.

David Chang

And it is cool. But like that over time, that gap of information started to dwindle that information. And while that's great, what was once a special thing now everyone can have. Right? So it's great and bad simultaneously. If you can see it that way. On one hand, it's better than ever to eat delicious things. But on the other hand, it's harder to see the peaks and valleys now because all it was everything looks like this flat plateau. Right. And and I think over time, you know, you would have I remember cooks would go to Europe, and they would send postcards, right? And they'd be like, Hey, I think a cookbook is going to come out in like two years. And that would be in French. And then another two years, that cookbook would be translated in English. So literally, you have a four year gap on a published book. Now, many of those recipes you can get instantaneously. Right? You would work at restaurants specifically to learn techniques and styles of how to you know, basically do anything, there was just an impossible way, it was just absolutely impossible to acquire as much knowledge as many people out today. And I think you could look at that. And any fabric of culture was the same way, right? And now you can go to YouTube, and pretty much get an idea. You may not master it, but you will know. So there's culinary literacy and knowledge is higher than it's ever been. It's only going to get higher and higher. Right. And I can see there's many examples of that right people didn't even know what kimchi was 30 years ago. Now they know that there's several types all you have to look into the supermarket aisle. I use that as a comp. I'm 46 but I remember growing up in If you had olive oil, that was it. Now you have a whole section dedicated to

Eli

You go olive oil in a squeeze bottle. Olive oil in a teardrop bottle. Yeah.

David Chang

And, you know, 25 years ago people didn't even know a pasta shape other than ravioli and spaghetti. It now you can name all kinds of pasta shapes, not everybody but it's common knowledge to a degree. So that knowledge is now number one commonplace number two. I think in some degree, it was a bubble for all the restaurants pre pandemic, right and over the pandemic, I think I read a great book by Safi oh my god, called Safi Bahcall, he wrote a Loonshots. And he's going to kill me just had a brain fart.

Eli

We'll edit in post, don't worry.

David Chang

He wrote a book. And it was a lot of it was understanding how someone that could have a great advantage could lose it, right? It's really hard to make decisions when you become, you know, top dog, and you have the lead. And he used the example of Pan Am airlines versus American and Pan Am at the time in the 60s - 70s was like the coolest airline. You know that good looking flight attendants. They had good food, they had the sleekest, sexiest airplanes and ones in business. And one isn't. And American wasn't cool. And they hired a CEO that worked at Hallmark. And but he made two things that really changed the game. One was creating frequent flyer miles. The other one was democratizing the reservation book. So you didn't have to go to American Airlines to book flights. He gave that technology and, and accessibility to every travel agent in America or the world over. Right. So one was cool. And focused on being cool. And being at the vanguard. And the other was just trying to be useful. And I feel like after the pandemic, you can see that independent restaurants, many of the my peers, we were caught in this sort of cycle of trying to be most relevant and most cool, right? Well, after what, you know, past three plus years, all of that has changed, right. And I think what is most useful now is what is most important, and you're always a product of what's happening the times and the pandemic, clearly, fast forwarded delivery. It also changed our habits of where we work, right. So that neighborhood restaurant in, in Brooklyn Heights is now one of the hottest restaurants, but it never had lunch business before. Right. So now you have three or four turns when maybe they will do turn to because now people aren't going to Manhattan as much. So a lot of things that are beyond anyone's control changed. And because of that, I knew this was going to happen, people were going to want something that was comforting. Comfort food. And that's the that's the era we are in right now. Everything is comfort. And you had mentioned restaurants that are not necessarily chef driven. I think again, everything is cyclical, and this was going to happen. Maybe it probably would have happened, in my opinion, maybe 12-10-15 years. But all the things that were going to happen, just happened in three years. It everything, just the clock just sped up. So that's the thing people want. Experience. Right? So sushi, restaurants, barbecue restaurants, Neapolitan pizza, things that don't deliver are very in demand. And also anything that is sort of best in class. And I think this is the this is the one thing I can see throughout culture is anything that is best in class. Usually best in class as an experience is super expensive. That is going to become even more expensive. Right. And I think that's the challenge that everyone has. And if you're in the middle, and not all experiences need to be expensive, right? You can have really affordable pop ups. And there's new ways of doing it. So anything that's new and experiential, I will put in that category. But everything else is either you making a cheap, or cheap and fast. And if you're in the middle, it's a it's a hard way to sort of navigate that future. So all of this was sort of beyond anyone's control. And I don't think anybody could have predicted it. And yes, Tik Tok's being used as a wonderful way of giving opinions and knowledge. I don't think people thought when it came out as a music app from musically that be used as almost like a Wikipedia of sorts, but You know, that's nothing new. And before that, you know, I remember the first time Flickr was used to capture food, I remember looking at the first food bloggers, setting up a tripod. Right? So the patterns have remained the same. How that pattern is like, disseminated like, I would say, like the, the hardware has remained the same, I should say, the software has changed. Right. And, and that's why I'm not too concerned about the future to a degree. But the one thing I have some concern is, how does anybody that is in the middle, stay relevant? Because the things that made you successful probably, you know, not even be what people want moving forward. So staying ahead of the pack, being relevant, being in the at the vanguard, I think is extremely difficult. And I don't know if I answered your question, because it was such a massive question.

Clara

Oh, I mean, completely answered my question. But yeah, sorry.

Eli

No, you got it.

Clara

Oh, no, I was just gonna say, I think, no, everything you covered was really interesting. I think the thing that I don't know, I was just, I was curious about is this idea of like, informational dissemination, they like the easy accessibility of, you know, so many techniques, and so many ingredients? And I'm just curious, and maybe there isn't, but like, is there any sort of, like, direct impact on the types of food, whether it's restaurant side or home cooking side that like you see coming out? And not necessarily in terms of like, quality unnecessarily? But do you think it's had an impact on like, people blending different cuisines more? Or maybe like, pushing more of the limits of like, certain ingredients? Or do you think that it's had sort of more of like, a numbing, or like, dumbing down effect, that it's just too much information for someone who's like, maybe say, like me, and is maybe like, boiled, you know, a box of pasta to then immediately go in and, like, start trying out these, like, you know, these techniques that are maybe like three or four rounds with cooking ahead of where I'm at, you know, being reasonable with myself.

David Chang

I mean, anything that can help people cook, I think, is a huge advantage. It's certainly advantage for me, even if I don't know how to do something like, oh, it gives me an idea. I don't have to watch the whole thing. But I do think there's a lot of hot garbage out there. Most of it actually is hot garbage. But I don't know if this is going to answer your question, in a maybe indirect way. The one thing that food has over other parts of culture, which is why I'm extremely bullish on it, is that it's the only thing you can download in this world, right? Yes, travel as well. There's other things, sporting events, concerts. You know, the experience, it's the one thing where you have to experience physically, right. And in food is one of them, you know, probably less than six or seven things in our lives that you actually have to physically be present and engage with it, whether you're sitting in your boxers at home, or in a three Michelin star restaurant. So that's the one advantage that's also historically been what prevented it from, you know, being broadcast simultaneously. Right? I remember talking to the manager of U2 at the time, and I don't know if you guys remember when U2 forced everyone to listen to that shit album.

Clara

When it auto downloaded and everybody had to listen.

Eli

We're not that young but yeah.

David Chang

But but think about how amazing that was right? Like there was be no way you'd be able to do that. And yes, you have theoretical ghost kitchens and stuff like that. But you still have logistical hurdles to do it, cooking is still going to be a bottleneck to get out there at the same time, which is why shelf stable foods, etc. chips, those may be the only things because you don't have to make them fresh, per se. But I digress. I think it's FOMO. It's literally the king of fear of missing out. And oftentimes food is is intertwined with travel. Right? It's being able to take a photograph, not just the food of where you're at. And a restaurant also, is this perfect environment for culture right now. Because many times celebrities might go there. And you have that endorsement. I can eat what they eat. It's just that's sort of where we're at right now. And it's about inaccessibility, not accessibility, right. So from there, you get this trickle down effect and you're gonna see imitations of the things that work but people don't realize that's not easy to to replicate. And from food, I always think about wine for example, something that is very finite in supply, and in places that are actually make something delicious. 20 I mean, I would say 20 years ago, 15 years ago, a lot of biodynamic wine started become in vogue in France, Italy, closer to Slovenia as well, whereas skin contact etc. Very in vogue no sulfites. I like them, I don't love them. And I thought it was interesting because in my opinion, it started to gain foothold not just because of the no sulfite, organic, biodynamic movement, people that wanted to learn about wine, and then were quite frankly, younger, could never taste a revenue that might be on a menu for 1800 bucks. Right? Basically anything from Bordeaux and burgundy and some of the super Tuscans and some of the cultish things you might have in in Sonoma or Napa that are several 1000s of dollars, right? And I my, my prefer Shibley from Burgundy, right? That's expensive as fuck? How are you going to taste that? And it's just the same thing. It's like, when you look at a Ferrari or a Lamborghini, or some stupid, you know, car that, you know, only a person, we, you know, I would, I don't even know if I know anyone that has one of those cars. But it'd be funny if somebody you just look at and be like, well, that's just not what I'm gonna do. You know? So a lot of the wines that are the complete opposite of that became super popular. And you saw the region of Jura where you, you know, Vin Jaune, this sauce, and a lot of this wines that are minarelli and their funky became super cool to the point now where everyone says, what that is better, that's the best one in the world. Listen, like...

Eli

Take us to school real quick.

David Chang

Yeah, I mean, like, I'm not, I'm the furthest thing from an expert on any of this stuff. But I've tasted a lot of great things. I can like it. But you can't say that it's better, right, in my opinion. But I sound like an old fart saying, like, that's not rocking this music, is rock and roll with or that's hip. I sound generationally out of touch. I understand that. But I also can see that, well, the next thing you know, is that region, and those wines become cost prohibitive, as well to the next generation. And that next a younger generation is going to find that thing that they have accessibility to. I think when we were talking you talked about tinned fish, I always felt that tinned fish is going to have its moment. All right, because of all those reasons, it is one of the best ways to taste something delicious, that shelf stable. Spain, many places in Europe, Asia have great tinned fish. And it's affordable. Right? It's not a surprise to me that it's having it's moment. Right? So again, when it becomes popular enough, maybe becomes more expensive, and really good tin fish is fucking expense.

Eli

Apparently it's a luxury. So they say.

David Chang

Exactly. It's not cheap. And I don't know if people understand that you can have you can spend $40-$50-$60 on a tin of tuna belly or, you know, baby clams, they're delicious. But maybe that becomes the norm. Maybe it doesn't I can't predict the future. But then, you know, it's almost like Darwinism. This trend, this desire to have accessibility, which becomes inaccessible now, because the price, the next generation will find their thing. Maybe it's Spam, who the fuck knows, you know, but but that's what happens. And it doesn't mean that it's worse. Right? It just is what they resonate with. And I think that's what's happening in food across the board is people now it's been so fractionalized, which is why food criticism is almost, for the most part, meaningless. It's the same reason why when's the last time someone had when's the last great rock and roll band? Not that even matters.

Eli

Amen brother.

David Chang

Right? You probably say Radiohead from the 90s. And they're in their late 50s now, right? When's the last movie star that captured across captured the minds and hearts of all generations, we still have Tom Cruise.

Eli

Listen, they're worried about AI generating or AI de-aging old movie stars. Rather than finding the new ones, you're banging on the same drum that I feel like, it's interesting, cuz I feel like the same. And you mentioned this earlier, talking about food through the same lens as what's happening with music, art, movies, etc. which I find fascinating. And it's also like food as analog food as something that's still physical. I feel like you can tie that back to, you know, growing demand for records and CDs and music as well. And, you know, the rise of zines and fashion zines and magazines as a whole, even VHS writing letters, etc. Like, all of that is increasing in demand. Because I think, you know, our world is getting more digitized and your feed could change when the algorithm shifts in a second, you could lose that playlist, you could lose that recipe etc. So it's just fascinating that it all ties back. It's kind of the same. Same thing there. I want to because we mentioned tin fish, and we also mentioned frozen food, and I've always been raked over the coals for it. Enjoying frozen foods for better for worse? And I know you had strong opinions on this as frozen food is kind of the next frontier. And I'm curious as to kind of what are the factors there other than long shelf life, I suppose frozen shelf life. But yeah, I'm curious where you see that going. I know, it's not the sexiest of topics, but it was interesting to me, as you know, someone who frozen food feels like a utility, you know what I mean? It's like, you're not really spending the time to make it to master a craft to cook it, I may be very wrong. But like, for me, it's like, just got home, it's eight, I'm tired. I don't want to make anything I'm gonna make you know, potstickers or something, call it a night? Why is that maybe gonna be something that more people are doing or something that becomes a bit more elevated?

David Chang

I mean, number one is frozen foods, you know, is one of the best ways to eat something with the highest quality of flavor, right, flash freezing processes, you know, technology that's been around for a while, but the degradation of quality is relatively minor, right? Compared to other ways of preserving food. And when you start thinking about it's like, okay, I wouldn't say every household has a freezer. Right? It's just arbitrage to some degree. Right? I would say now, I don't know, thrown out there. 95% of Americans have a freezer. All right. Sounds great to me. I mean... Yeah, you know, it's, but like, like, okay, outside of, like, Well, that's an amazing thing. So you have food that can be done deliciously and reheated, either an oven or in a microwave oven to it's also a form of storage that almost every single person in North America has. Well, you know, trends come and go. Frozen pizzas always going to be a thing. You're going to have prepared meals. I would also say it's like, okay. 30 years ago, if you wanted to do Udaan noodles with a broth or stir fry with, you know, you can add on protein, right? So maybe you're just selling food on noodles, and they can buy the protein, or it comes with it, doesn't matter. That's an easy thing to sell today. Because that just replaced. The pattern, again, has changed, but the underlying fundamentals have remained the same. That really just changed like chow mein noodles in a in a in a can. To some degree right? Or, or becomes or it might have changed ramen noodles or instant ramen noodles. Again, like everything's changed. Asian food is much more sophisticated, right? It's better and people know more about it. So it's maybe also a way of getting to taste flavors that they may not get on the regular freshly I don't know, but we could spend all day talking about the powers of reasons why a freezer is important. But it's just sort of sitting there and we've got a long way from the 1950s Frozen hungry man meal watching TV and eating. You know, salisbury steak. I love and think it's delicious. But it's more than a frozen burrito. Right? So I think I love taking bets on things. You're like, why the fuck didn't anyone else? Why is there no movement here? It's one of the reasons why, you know, I went really hard in the microwaves. 91% of all US households ever microwave. collecting dust at the most people are using it to reheat water or to make microwave popcorn. That's about it. It's like, okay, well, all you need to do is teach people that what's holding you back what's holding a mircowave back? Horrible marketing that was developed by the army. Any marketing the army makes us pretty bad. Unless you're trying to get 18 year olds to go to war right there.

Clara

They're really good at that. It seems insane. Yeah.

David Chang

And it's like, okay, and there's a lot of health and science mumbo jumbo nonsense. All of that's not true. So it's like, okay, it's, uh, not that high of a time commitment for me to start with education. And before you make microwaves, which I hope to do one day, let's try to actually find out why a microwave is bad. Most people microwave and plastic. Right? Most people don't know that you can microwave the only things that are safe are certain shapes of metal, glass and silicone. Microwaving plastic is really bad for you. That's what's bad for you. So it's like okay, why don't we create a microwave cookware dish set? And that's step one. So it's, those are the best I like to play in. Frozen is something like that as well where it's just totally uncool. I love the uncool shit. And between frozen meals and microwaves, you can't find two things that an established cook or an ambition. He's young cook would shit on more than those two things. So to me, I view that as opportunity.

Clara

Yeah, no. I mean, I've recently been on a bit of a bender on cooking eggs in my microwave, because I have a cat. Yeah, well, my cat won't stop getting on the stove, which is a separate topic that I will not bore you guys with. But I've been making my eggs in the microwave, but I have been cooking them in a plastic dish. So I'll consider myself warned. But I know it's when I start like my eyes starts going like you guys will know what's up. But yeah, I think that the microwave, you know, the microwave and frozen food phenomena are both like really interesting spaces to watch. And Eli, you've definitely found yourself a powerful, powerful ally here today.

Eli

I will say that I feel like the best marketing the US Army has done recently. Is that missing fighter jet? I don't know if you saw that?

David Chang

No.

Eli

Sorry. It's a total non sequitur. I promise I'll take less than 20 seconds. But this fighter pilot ejected from a jet. And then the military's like, "Hey, we're missing this fighter jet. Can anyone find it?" Everyone was okay. But there was just a missing jet in the air for about a couple hours. But hey, maybe that's that's the industry we live in.

David Chang

But I just wanted to say one thing about where we're at, in it's very similar to not be able to have a like, titan of their field, right? Whether it's a celebrity, musician, author, whatever. It's hard right now, because everything's fractionalized. Everyone has their own micro communities, right, almost impossible to transcend. Unless you're like Taylor Swift, right? I'm not saying it's not impossible. It's there. And look what happens when you can do that.

Eli

Right. Unless you can afford to go to see Taylor Swift to right?

David Chang

Exactly. Right. So it's just we're living in a very strange days. Right?

Eli

Great movie. But yeah, I agree. I agree. It is we I mean, everyone's in their own kind of like algorithmically fed media ecosystem. So it is just kind of constant ambient noise when nothing really nothing really breaks through so we got you know, the 10th Saw movie The 15th Marvel Cinematic Universe, no great rock bands, although Brian Jonestown Massacre are playing tomorrow at Brooklyn Steel. So definitely, we'll go to see them. But yeah, no, I totally hear you. It's, it is weird Twilight Zone era that we live in. I feel like..

David Chang

And things. As you guys know, trends. No one has any idea how long something is going to last?

Eli

I know. I mean, we were just talking about we do our own type of Trend Report and just talking about how kind of like futile, it feels now. I mean, now this is just a little therapy session. But it's like, we don't know anymore. And I don't think anyone knows anymore because trends have become trending. And it's so hard to kind of like parse through what is actually meaningful. So when you say like you like taking bets on the things that aren't cool, like, or don't seem cool. I actually think that that might be one of the more radical things you could do, because no one is really talking about it. And if it seems boring now, it's probably not going to be which you know, how long it takes to get there? Who knows now but I mean,

David Chang

That's what the internet social media has done. It's literally an acid that minds through everything un-cool.

Clara

That's a fantastic metaphor. I mean, honestly.

Eli

Great album name. Yeah, I hear you. I want to get your take on like a couple random things, more non secretaries. If you don't mind. Clara and I were talking about menus with pictures on them and how that's like, can often be seen, I suppose sometimes. It's like eh wouldn't wanna eat here. What are your takes on menus with pictures on them? Good, bad, indifferent? Doesn't matter?

David Chang

Sometimes. I think. Oftentimes, I find that it saves you time. Right? We were just talking about this on the podcast, right? That we recorded today that if you're an immigrant to this country, and oftentimes the best way to communicate that this is my specialty, because maybe they don't have a front of house. They don't have the means to communicate to an audience or the money to be in an environment to communicate to an audience that might dine there. So having signature specials and those specials having a photo even if they are done poorly, I oftentimes like love that. Yeah. And when you go back many times, then you start to sort of to you know, try out other things on that menu. So but but when you're at a place that's pretty well established, like, like the Cheesecake Factory or in restaurants like that, people love it doesn't need to have pictures on the menu,

Eli

Let alone 40 or something.

Clara

I know it Fettuccine Alfredo looks like thank you Cheesecake Factory.

Eli

What about like, because we talked about food as physical food as analog, I feel like there's a lot of discourse around QR code menus, which I think was one of the like most annoying things to come out of the COVID economy. Also because it forces you to be on your phone, when going out to eat ideally is like a social experience that you are enjoying with friends, significant other, family, again, could be a very dumb question, but I'm very curious, your take like QR code menu? Yes, no, eh?

David Chang

I think it's probably going to stick with restaurants that are charging a certain amount of money and experience. And you're probably going to see, you know, restaurants where, again, everything in restaurants is, you know, rubbing two pennies together. You know, it's just tight margins. I think, where you can cut costs, right? That's going to, so it's going to be an either or proposition for menus? For sure.

Eli

Right. Any pressing questions from you?

Clara

No, I mean, just last thing on menus, I guess, while we're here, the other thing that, you know, we've, I don't know, just been chatting about maybe internally is the whole looking at the menu before you go to the restaurant phenomenon. And I don't even know if this is a completely anecdotal observation. But it seems like, you know, sometimes people are divided into kind of two camps of like, looking at the menu ahead of time ruins the experience, looking at all the photos on the Instagram, looking up the Yelp, like, kind of to the same point, like creating your own menu with pictures for a restaurant, versus, you know, like, I don't want to go in advance I want to, you know, fully experienced this restaurant and what it has to offer. Do you have thoughts one way or the other, looking up the restaurant before you go checking out all of the food of the weird photos like other people have posted?

David Chang

I don't necessarily look at the photos, and I don't, if I'm going to, I don't look at the menu often. But when I do it, it's just more to get a sense and a vibe of what's being sold there. I'm never looking at the recommendations. I'm never looking at the this is the must have let you know at the same time. If it's like say, this restaurant that serves gnocchi, and it's like everyone talks about it, like clearly you're going to try it. Right. But like, you're not gonna go out of your way to not order those things. But I do think what I like to do is get a sense of what's actually good. Versus it's just of the moment. And I really would rather order the things that are just really good. Then have something where like, why the fuck that I ordered this? This is so stupid. Why did I get this rainbow bagel with rainbow cream cheese? It's like?

Clara

Oh my gosh, don't get you. I started out with the rainbow bagels.

Eli

Bagels have been doing too much in New York. I don't know when the last time we are in the city was but it has just become way too complicated and complex.

David Chang

Yeah. Because you're trying to grab attention, right? I mean, it's, I don't blame anyone for doing that. But you know, it's, again, a metaphor for how I like to look at restaurants. I love looking at the best of lists, anything. But I also think from a culinary point of view, it also hurts the chef's and I think we're gonna see that conversation happening. I think the food media will finally become self aware enough where they're like, oh, fuck where the problem too. Right? Because if you have like a hot list, like, what about the restaurants that don't make the list, then you then can't proclaim equality and all this other stuff, because it's fucking not fair. And the other hand, I like those lists, because I try to avoid those restaurants. Or what I like to do in LA, you know, I might say, oh, this is the hot restaurant in K-Town. I will go to the restaurant next door to that restaurant. Because I want that self discovery. There's nothing better than going to a place and this can happen all the time. Where no one's talking about it. It's a diamond in the rough and for whatever reasons. People aren't talking about it. I mean, I I'm always happy that it's now closed Spoon by H. The owner is now doing mostly private dining, but it was in LA and it was really near the Ringer Studios when we were recording at Sunset Gower. And somebody had told me this restaurant was really good. They made Korean food and I was like, Alright, I'm gonna check it out. And whenever somebody tells me that and I, and it's hard to find any information on it, I was bookmark that. Because maybe it's bad. Maybe it's good, but it's still meant something to somebody that I care about, or I trust. And I love restaurants that are delicious when they shouldn't be. And this restaurant didn't have a bathroom. It was a dessert shop. But served to me some of the most original Korean cooking I've ever tasted. It was so good. And I was thinking to myself, like how many restaurants are like this? Probably 1000 I think in LA some huge number. And it just doesn't hit the radar of the food, you know, gatekeepers. It was like, That's stupid, right like, and sure enough other I tell people, and I made sure that the owner was ready for what was coming potentially, and that everyone's writing about, you know, in the pandemic happen, unfortunately for her. And I'm like, there's great food being made in places all the time, you just got to search for it. And there's something extremely rewarding to sort of, like, blazing your own path and trail. That seems like quite the hyperbole, but you know, to do it on your own. That's cool. All right. We need more people to do that. And in some regard, I think it's great to see that on social media and Tik Tok you have a bunch of people that have visited are just basically food vigilantes are like, fuck it, I'm just gonna go talk about this. And that is the positive, we are seeing people just be like, you know what, I'm just going to do it myself. And that in aggregate, that is, that is an extraordinary positive, so it is happening, you just have to search out for it, you even have to search out for those people that are writing their own reviews. Right? Nothing is easy to find anymore. And basically anything that is cherry picked for you. I think it's total bullshit.

Eli

Totally, I mean, again, talking about reigniting a little bit of self discovery, and also the importance of friction, like not having everything be fed to you. This is why some Spotify playlists are absolute garbage most, because you're not taking the time to like, find the song that is maybe track 18 in an album and it doesn't have the star next to it, or whatever, you know, it's not chosen for you. But it's great. And I think, again, like that is so important, just blazing your own trail, like you said, going off the beaten path a little bit and running up against a little bit of friction. I feel like there is where you find kind of the diamond in the rough that sounds so unbelievably corny, but I just saying I agree with you things that are spoon fed to you are oftentimes I feel like don't taste as good as they seem, you know, a little bit of bitter medicine. But yeah.

David Chang

It's inherited knowledge is the same problem as inherited wealth, and inherited success. Right? When it's just given to you, it's hard to appreciate how the fuck you got there. Right? And if you've had friends that may be independently wealthy, and they're, you know, it's not as awesome as it seems. Because like, their life sort of sucks.

Eli

Right. Is that a platform sticker for 2024?

David Chang

Which is why, you know, there's a lot of great food out there, and nobody has any. I mean, you just have to read what's being done like, quick food criticism is not nearly as powerful as it used to be, it still is. And the main reasons that have actually the right word is democratization, right? You know, that has changed so much. And there's so many different ways you get information. So I just encourage everybody to go out there and just eat places that you would never think about eating.

Eli

Don't microwave the plastic Clara.

David Chang

Don't, don't microwave plastic.

Eli

Even for Cosmo.

Clara

Very important lesson here today.

David Chang

Yeah, we need to get you a set of Any Days.

Clara

Oh, yeah, I can't wait. I'm very excited. Very excited, by the way. Um, I guess just like, as one last sort of closing question. Eli, I'm poaching your question here. But just to the point about, you know, curation and kind of like, maybe like the lack of teeth that food criticism has these days, I think something you know, we've been chatting with a couple of folks for the podcast across music and you know, CPG foods and some other spaces, but just sort of like the importance of a curator and whether or not it feels relevant to like, their space or their context. And in talking, I think right now, I think this sort of exploratory fact of food of like, going out there on your own trying things developing sort of like, what your tastes what your interest in food might be as kind of like an individual pursuit is super important. And I agree, I just, I'm also curious, do you think there is any place for kind of like that sort of food curator, if not a food critic, if, you know, maybe just like, I don't know, a food, someone to you know, follow or emulate or you know, provide some context around here's what to look for. Here's what to do, like, is that a presence that you think is so important? Is it lacking now are there still sort of those figures that sort of help to shape those like for starting out say foodie,

David Chang

Right. I'm thinking you're gonna start to see more verification of people that have good taste like you some some way yeah, you know, and it's not going to be a blue checkmark, it'll be something some company is going to create something or Amazon or I don't know, somebody's gonna say like, this person actually knows what the fuck they're talking about on the subjects. And like, for example, you have yesterday Today was Monday Night Football and Troy Aikman. He's a super fucking popular very successful commentator now with Joe Buck. Why is he nobody questions why he's announcing football. He played, you know, he's a Super Bowl champion. Hey, like, he shouldn't be telling us what to do Tony Romo. He's fucking awesome at it, right? There's a certain combination, and they're articulate, and etc. Everyone else, if you just put it someone else in there, they could be great, but you have to earn that trust. And I don't know how but trust is an important thing.

Eli

In any relationship.

David Chang

In any relationship. And I also think that how people are going to get things curated, it's going to be like choosing a video game avatar, you know.

Eli

Interesting.

David Chang

You know, it's gonna be a group of people. It's like, listen, when we did like the first ghost kitchen back when we did Maple. Year, like a long time ago now. And I remember thinking when we built the app, and I was like, Okay, this part these, like, 25% of the people ordered salad every fucking day. Right? Not a surprise to me that they're probably going to like a healthy drink. And this and this. So it's like, much like a Spotify algorithm that you'd like, put them in a bucket, right? So the problem, they're not going to listen to me talking about a double cheeseburger and a cheesesteak, and they're gonna think about it, but they don't, I'm not their cup of tea. So, you're going to find somebody that does resonate to that community. And I think that's what you're going to happen. I mean, that is what is going to happen to some degree is, you know, and it's quite possible that like, I might want to now learn about this new, like this new person, and this healthier way of eating because I have to now change my life and my diet. So it's like, you're gonna be able to choose that. In some degree. I think you can see that in the podcast world. Right. That's almost already happening in podcasts. People are choosing who they're listening to as an avatar for the life that they want to some degree or information that they want clarified. You know, I you think about the rise of the I always joke, the tech bro health and wellness guys like the Peter's, Tia's, the Huberman's, they're great. But like, they got a hardcore following. You know, and Tim Ferriss, they, it's a specific group of people. And I think that's already happening in podcast, and you're gonna see that to some degree, you know, happen elsewhere. And the reason somebody like Huberman gets a podcast is he probably is the doctor or advises other celebrities. He's a Stanford professor, like, you have to have some credentials to be able to, like, emanate and expertise.

Eli

I know it's amazing they let schmucks like us have a podcast. One day, one day we'll get there might not be a blue check. Maybe it'll be a cosign who knows? The journey starts now. Dave, thank you so much for joining us on the pod today. Really appreciate it.

David Chang

Anytime, guys. Thanks for having me.

Eli

Absolutely. Yo, thanks for tuning in. Stay up to date with all things Day One FM by subscribing to our page on Spotify, following us on Instagram @d1a and staying up to date with the latest trends and insights on d1a.com/perspective.